Dating Paul and his Letters

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
robert j
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Re: Dating Paul and his Letters

Post by robert j » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:20 pm

From another recent thread ---
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:17 pm

The historical crucifixion occurred during 117 ad. The allegory presented in the Gospels is that of the transmigration of the Christ spirit from one to another. In this case, Simon of Cyrene is crucified, Joseph of Arimathea is the new host of Christ.
Yes, we certainly have different opinions on the available evidence.

I've also found your rampant ad hominem attacks in other threads to be repugnant, regardless of who they are aimed at.

I have no interest in discussions with you and I suggest you take your opinions to another thread.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Dating Paul and his Letters

Post by Joseph D. L. » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:46 am

Okay. And you are who exactly?

Why did you use a post I made on another thread, with an entirely different context? What was the point? We’re arguing dating here. Not meaning. We can have a different interpretation as to the meaning, but the dating is an objective reality. Mark is not a first century document. Full stop.

Also, I can only recall two people whom I actively insult, because they are deserving of it. I have zero patience for Giuseppe’s bullshit, and Wilson’s ideas are Atwillian nonsense. Typically I supplement insults with reasons for doing so. I honestly don’t have a problem ad hominems. It’s easier to call the guy a dumbass than to argue the same point over and over.

But whatever. I had no intention in discussing anything with you. I only wanted to point out your baseless presumption.Good bye, good day, have a nice life.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Dating Paul and his Letters

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:56 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:46 am
Okay. And you are who exactly?

Why did you use a post I made on another thread, with an entirely different context? What was the point? We’re arguing dating here. Not meaning. We can have a different interpretation as to the meaning, but the dating is an objective reality. Mark is not a first century document. Full stop.
In what sense is the dating of the gospel of Mark, or any of the other earliest Christian texts, an objective reality?
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Dating Paul and his Letters

Post by Joseph D. L. » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:50 pm

Because they are a tangible reality that we can observe via the archaeological and manuscript records.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Dating Paul and his Letters

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:36 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:50 pm
Because they are a tangible reality that we can observe via the archaeological and manuscript records.
Dating a text is not the same as dating a manuscript.

Case in point: the Damascus Document. When fragments of it were first discovered in the Cairo Genizah, the manuscript was dated to medieval times, but their discoverer, Solomon Schechter, dated the text to the first century BC. He received pushback on this, but then the Qumran stash was discovered, along with fragments of the same work, and Schechter's dating was vindicated.

We can date the fragments and the manuscripts of the gospel of Mark somewhat objectively, or at least by external means, but dating the text itself is always going to be subjective and based upon internal means, given the current state of the historical record.
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davidmartin
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Re: Dating Paul and his Letters

Post by davidmartin » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:15 am

Ben has the antidote for all erroneous suppositions and flights of fancy i for one will not post my theories whenever he's online

klewis
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Re: Dating Paul and his Letters

Post by klewis » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:27 am

davidmartin wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:15 am
Ben has the antidote for all erroneous suppositions and flights of fancy i for one will not post my theories whenever he's online
He has taken me to task and it doesn't get better.

robert j
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Re: Dating Paul and his Letters

Post by robert j » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:53 am

I have long appreciated and admired Ben's depth-of-knowledge and intellectual honesty.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Dating Paul and his Letters

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:25 pm

davidmartin wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:15 am
Ben has the antidote for all erroneous suppositions and flights of fancy i for one will not post my theories whenever he's online
klewis wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:27 am
davidmartin wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:15 am
Ben has the antidote for all erroneous suppositions and flights of fancy i for one will not post my theories whenever he's online
He has taken me to task and it doesn't get better.
While I am flattered by these statements, I certainly do not intend to quash experimental hypotheses or even entire theories on this forum. Part of the purpose of such a forum is precisely to test such ideas. My own recent thread about the authorship of the apocalypse of John came to a rather unceremonious end, due to some rather devastating feedback from John2 and andrewcriddle:
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:30 pm
I find that the main contention of the OP, that the pseudonymous nature of all the other apocalypses implies something about the apocalypse of John, is weaker than I had thought. I appreciate the feedback.
But I love it when I float an idea and it does not work out: one less dead end to have to explore!

I admit, I can get impatient when people post wild ideas with unearned confidence (and downright frustrated when people pretend to know languages they do not know), but posting wild ideas in the true spirit of inquiry can be a lot of fun.
robert j wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:53 am
I have long appreciated and admired Ben's depth-of-knowledge and intellectual honesty.
Despite our many differences in approach, I feel the same about you, Robert. Thank you.
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