Transfiguration == original crucifixion in the Earliest Gospel

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Giuseppe
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Re: Transfiguration == original crucifixion in the Earliest Gospel

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:21 am

(As premise for a post of this kind, a particular contempt for the interlocutor's skepticism is necessary by me, without offence)

EVIDENCE OF MARCION'S PRIORITY ON MARK ABOUT A PRECISE POINT: THE TESTING OF JESUS IN SHEOL


“In addition to his blasphemy against God Himself, he advanced this also, truly speaking as with the mouth of the devil, and saying all things in direct opposition to the truth—that Cain, and those like him, and the Sodomites, and the Egyptians, and others like them, and, in fine, all the nations who walked in all sorts of abomination, were saved by the Lord, on His descending into Hades, and on their running unto Him, and that they welcomed Him into their kingdom.”
But the serpent which was in Marcion declared that Abel, and Enoch, and Noah, and those other righteous men who sprang from the patriarch Abraham, with all the prophets, and those who were pleasing to God, did not partake in salvation. For since these men, he says, knew that their God was constantly tempting them, so now they suspected that He was tempting them, and did not run to Jesus, or believe His announcement: and for this reason he declared that their souls remained in Hades.

From Book I, chap. 27,Against Heresies)

27 They arrived again in Jerusalem, and while Jesus was walking in the temple courts, the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders came to him. 28 “By what authority are you doing these things?” they asked. “And who gave you authority to do this?”

29 Jesus replied, “I will ask you one question. Answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things. 30 John’s baptism—was it from heaven, or of human origin? Tell me!”

31 They discussed it among themselves and said, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will ask, ‘Then why didn’t you believe him?’ 32 But if we say, ‘Of human origin’ …” (They feared the people, for everyone held that John really was a prophet.)

33 So they answered Jesus, “We don’t know.”

Jesus said, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.”

(Mark 11:27-33)

Do you see what both the episodes, despite of the great difference of context, have in common ?

The sin of the interlocutors of Jesus is not take position abous his identity.
  • The souls don't know how to decide if he comes from YHWH or from the Alien God.
  • The pharisees don't know how to decide if John the Baptist was an usurper or a divine Revealer.
COROLLARY

The goal of "Mark" (editor) is to refer to John on the earth an ambiguous testing originally about Jesus and happened in Sheol.

Evidently because the original episode in Marcion, with OT prophets being the sinners and not the pharisees, was too much embarrassing for the Judaizer named "Mark".
But especially because in the original episode, among the sinners in Sheol, there was the prophet John also, as last of the OT prophets (as author of anti-pauline Revelation).

By placing himself on the side of John the Baptist and joining the Messianic Secret with the difficulty to recognize the John's identity, the message of the Mark's Jesus is: John is a prophet of YHWH just as I am the Messiah of YHWH, he is not an evil agent of the demiurge YHWH. Nor I am the Son of the Unknown Father ("Bar-Abbas")
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Nasruddin
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Re: Transfiguration == original crucifixion in the Earliest Gospel

Post by Nasruddin » Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:00 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:01 pm
Klewis, read well the quote: I don't refer to you as "your stupid apologist".
Nasruddin wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:51 pm
Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:18 am
Nasruddin, you have not proved that Jesus has a personality in John. Are you able to describe your point without too much quotes? It seems that you are unable even to do so. I am sure that even your stupid apologist here doesn't realize your point because you have not explained it well.
Seriously?? You are asking me to prove a point without quoting from the text that the point originates from?? How else do you expect me to do this? This is an utterly bizarre request.
not so bizarre when I ask you simply what is, in four rows, your view about the Baptist in John. It seems that you talk as an oracle, releasing cryptic fragments of interpretations but without a general view of the all.
We were discussing Jesus' emotions. So it IS bizarre.
It would be equally bizarre to ask me about John the Baptist, and not want me to quote from the text.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Transfiguration == original crucifixion in the Earliest Gospel

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:18 pm

I understand that you don't change your mind about the emotional Jesus. My question was simply about your general view on John the Baptist in the fourth gospel, by using the minimal use of quotes. Possibly in another thread started by you.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Nasruddin
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Re: Transfiguration == original crucifixion in the Earliest Gospel

Post by Nasruddin » Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:43 pm

In the Gospel of John, John the Baptist was the instigator of Jesus' ministry. He was the first to give testimony to the one to come. He was sent by God to find him. He taught his disciples to expect the Messiah. This is why the 4th gospel is called the Gospel of John. Both John and Jesus are called Rabbi, and Jesus instructed his disciples in the ways of John. Jesus' first and most loyal followers were from John. Jesus carries on his ministry during John's own activity, and the two express very complimentary messages. John is not killed in the Gospel of John, only put in prison. After he is imprisoned Jesus returns to the place where John had been baptizing, and gathers more of John's disciples around him. John was the original cleanser of Israel, preparing the Jews for salvation.

John declared that he was not worthy to undo Jesus' sandals. Yet Mary must have done so in order to anoint his feet with costly oils. This is why John does not baptize Jesus in the Gospel of John. Only in John is Jesus called "The Anointed" (the Messiah). And it is Mary who anoints him, not John the Baptist.

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