In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example

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Giuseppe
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In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example

Post by Giuseppe »


There he found a man named Aeneas, who was paralyzed and had been bedridden for eight years. 34 “Aeneas,” Peter said to him, “Jesus Christ heals you. Get up and roll up your mat.” Immediately Aeneas got up. 35 All those who lived in Lydda and Sharon saw him and turned to the Lord.

(Acts 9:33-35)

Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. 4 Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on.
...
So he said to the man, 11 “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” 12 He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”

(Mark 2:3-4, 11-12)

What is reported about Simon Peter in Acts seems to be derived from the Logia given by Mark (thanks Peter) to Papias (H.E. I3:39, 15-16).

The Logia reported more precisely the actions and the sayings of Simon Peter when possessed by the spirit of Jesus Christ (not a historical being). Acts and sayings that were reported by "Mark" about not more Jesus Christ as possessor of Peter, but about Jesus Christ as an entity distinct from Peter.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example

Post by Giuseppe »

Another example:

Talitha Kum in Mark 5.

Tabitha in Acts 9:36.

A common source is required.


A source about Simon Peter possessed by (=acting and talking in the name of) Jesus Christ the Lord.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:31 pm Another example:

Talitha Kum in Mark 5.

Tabitha in Acts 9:36.

A common source is required.
טליתא = Aramaic for "maiden."

טביתא = Aramaic for "gazelle." δορκάς = Greek for "gazelle."

These are just Aramaic words; nothing magical about them.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example

Post by Ben C. Smith »

What is the point if the author of Acts knew (something like) Mark? The author of Luke evidently did, and Luke-Acts is a thing.
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Re: In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example

Post by Ben C. Smith »

(Unless you are saying that the very fact that Talitha and Tabitha are not the same word is what requires the common source, as opposed to direct copying one by the other. Is that what you are saying?)
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Re: In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Here are the verses:

Mark 5.41: 41 Taking the child by the hand, He said to her, "Talitha [Τάλιθα], kum," which translated means, "Damsel, I say to you, get up [ἔγειρε]!"

Acts 9.40: 40 But Peter sent them all out and knelt down and prayed, and turning to the body, he said, "Tabitha, arise [Ταβιθά, ἀνάστηθι]." And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

There are two word pairs: Τάλιθα/Ταβιθά and ἔγειρε/ἀνάστηθι. The first two words are similar in sound but not in meaningy; the second two are similar in meaning but not in sound. Neither pair lines up etymologically.

The Hebrew verb קום can be translated by either Greek verb:

Genesis 4.8: 8 Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up [יָּקָם, ἀνέστη] against Abel his brother and killed him.

1 Samuel 2.8: 8 "He raises [קִים, ἐγείρει] the poor from the dust; He lifts the needy from the ash heap to make them sit with nobles and inherit a seat of honor; for the pillars of the earth are Yahweh's, and He set the world on them."

So I imagine the Aramaic cognate could be, as well. I do not know this for certain, but it would be surprising if it could not for some reason.

At Mark 5.41 codex Washingtonianus actually has Ταβιθά instead of Τάλιθα. Bezae has ράββι θάβιτα ("rabbi, damsel")!

ETA: A snippet from Taylor's commentary on Mark:

Vincent Taylor, Page 296.png
Vincent Taylor, Page 296.png (28.25 KiB) Viewed 8037 times
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example

Post by davidmartin »

Ben those words may not be magical but when left untranslated they appear to be!
If that tradition (unique to Mark?) goes back to the first edition it sort of makes Jesus seem a little magical, especially with the 'potions' and ointments
Could this be a literary device of Mark that become unacceptable later when true miracles were definitely the order of the day?

Mark makes me feel like it's a kind of literary production avoiding or unaware of meaty theological issues, almost entertaining and my theory on this is that it could have been something to appeal to Pauline churches who if they only had Paul's gospel knew hardly anything of Jesus's life... but if such things were 'forbidden' in those churches a nicely written, popular account might just be irresistible...
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Re: In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example

Post by Ben C. Smith »

davidmartin wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:15 pm Ben those words may not be magical but when left untranslated they appear to be!
If that tradition (unique to Mark?) goes back to the first edition it sort of makes Jesus seem a little magical, especially with the 'potions' and ointments
Could this be a literary device of Mark that become unacceptable later when true miracles were definitely the order of the day?
I am not rootedly against such an interpretation, but what I was responding to was Giuseppe's fragment of an argument; I originally took him as meaning one thing, but he may have meant another; hard to tell, since it was so brief. The term "magical" was meant to label his attempt to use these words as an argument for sourcing, not to refer to how the passage itself may or may not have been read in antiquity.
Mark makes me feel like it's a kind of literary production avoiding or unaware of meaty theological issues, almost entertaining and my theory on this is that it could have been something to appeal to Pauline churches who if they only had Paul's gospel knew hardly anything of Jesus's life... but if such things were 'forbidden' in those churches a nicely written, popular account might just be irresistible...
That sounds like an hypothesis worth exploring. The Pauline epistles were full of theology and church praxis, but very short on details about Jesus himself. An entertaining gospel might have been just the thing.
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Re: In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example

Post by davidmartin »

That sounds like an hypothesis worth exploring. The Pauline epistles were full of theology and church praxis, but very short on details about Jesus himself. An entertaining gospel might have been just the thing.
yes, kind of like an 'open goal' just waiting to be filled. Paul does have an aversion to any historical Jesus
Paul strikes me as hopeful that he might vicariously fulfil that role for believers, but if so he didn't have a grasp of human nature (lol) people are going to be curious to say the least
Maybe he was kind of not really on the same page as the historical Jesus either let's just say
OK... further exploring this would lead to a scenario where the gospels could actually contain coded information, hints or whatever for later explanation by missionaries into Paul's churches to correct a few things... i never used to think like a criminal till i started researching Jesus!
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Re: In what sense Mark (Judaizer) was a disciple of Simon Peter (docet Papias): an example

Post by Ben C. Smith »

davidmartin wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:39 pm
That sounds like an hypothesis worth exploring. The Pauline epistles were full of theology and church praxis, but very short on details about Jesus himself. An entertaining gospel might have been just the thing.
yes, kind of like an 'open goal' just waiting to be filled. Paul does have an aversion to any historical Jesus
Paul strikes me as hopeful that he might vicariously fulfil that role for believers, but if so he didn't have a grasp of human nature (lol) people are going to be curious to say the least
Maybe he was kind of not really on the same page as the historical Jesus either let's just say
OK... further exploring this would lead to a scenario where the gospels could actually contain coded information, hints or whatever for later explanation by missionaries into Paul's churches to correct a few things... i never used to think like a criminal till i started researching Jesus!
In my view, the "historical Jesus" may have been fairly minimal in Paul's day, anyway. He may not have had much material to work with; it was still in development.
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