Epiphanius on the Ebionites

[Secret Alias]

And notice that Irenaeus is the first to identify the Gospel of Matthew and allots that gospel to this sect who presumably have an Aramaic name because they use a gospel originally written in the Hebrew dialect. But that these details aren't picked up by later authorities seems to me to have been added by Irenaeus. So what are we left with? Basically the 'Ebionites' are the sect that opposed Paul in Galatians and that's all the sources knew about them.

[Secret Alias]

As such the 'sect' is non-existent. There as real as 'Lilliputians' or the people who oppose the Partridge family in a particular episode of the show. Maybe the portrait of the sect in the Partridge Family show reflects something of 'real' 1960s social reality and thus has 'reality.' But the sect isn't real. Nor are the Ebionites.

[Secret Alias]

And how real are Paul's 'Jewish-Christian' opponents? I am not one to take Galatians chapter 2 as historical. It was made up in the mid-second century to reframe the battle of Paul and his opponents. I don't buy into the existence of 'Jewish-Christians' of this sort - period.

[Ben C. Smith]

And I've fallen behind at work, so I'm going to have to sleep on what you and Neil have offered today. The only thing I'm wondering at the moment (and I don't recall or have time right now to check if Nathan mentioned it, and assuming the citation I gave upthread is correct) is what would have given Lightfoot the idea that Rabbi Abin was "a founder of sects."

Where does the exact phrase "founder of sects" come from? In the passage that I found, Lightfoot himself says, "We find the names of some archheretics mentioned in the Talmuds, though we cannot say they were the same men."

It's from that old book I linked to upthread:

... Lightfoot says that he is mentioned in the Jerusalem Talmud as a founder of sects.


https://books.google.com/books?id=WA1QA ... ud&f=false

Of course I can't do anything with this if no one can find what Lightfoot supposedly saw. And now that I take another look at the book (I had copied it from an older thread), I see I had typed it wrong. It actually says, "Lightfoot says that he [Ebion] is mentioned in the Jerusalem Talmud as one of the founders of sects."

But if Lightfoot mistook Rabbi Abin for Ebion, I'd still like to see the passage that gave him the impression that he was "one of the founders of sects" (which I take to mean minim and thus as a pejorative). And where is the above passage you mention that refers to archheretics from? (Sorry if you've mentioned it already.)

The whole "founder of sects" thing looks like a misquote of Lightfoot to me, unless a passage can be found in which Lightfoot says that. What I have found is Lightfoot saying, "We find the names of some archheretics mentioned in the Talmuds, though we cannot say they were the same men." That is from here: https://books.google.com/books?id=-SlWA ... 22&f=false.

[John2]

He says in some respects they were Gnostics, since (for example) they had "the form of the Cerinthians, and the perversity of the Carpocratians."

Right, but here's the problem with that. There is a logical disconnect with that. The Carpocratians are licentious orgy-participants. How do they square with the bare portrait of a 'Jewish Christian' sect? The reference is just there because of the sequential order. It wouldn't make sense to put them in the order of the narrative otherwise. It's done for logical cohesiveness.

Epiphanius says in what respect they were like Carpocratians (and Cerinthians) in Pan. 30.14.1-4:

For by supposedly using their [the Ebionites'] same so-called Gospel according to Matthew Ceritnhus and Carpocrates want to prove from the beginning of Matthew, by the genealogy, that Christ is the product of Joseph's seed and Mary ... that Jesus is really a man ... but that Christ, who descended in the form of a dove, has entered him -as we have found already in other sects- and been united with him.

[Secret Alias]

But that similarity is learned from books. It's not based on eyewitness testimony.

[Secret Alias]

And what is the source for this? Who or what is Irenaeus's and Epiphanius's source? Hegesippus?

[John2]

But that similarity is learned from books. It's not based on eyewitness testimony.

And that's what I said upthread, that Epiphanius is more or less true to his written sources (whether they are true or not is another matter) and thus perhaps he is similarly true to his oral sources.

[John2]

And what is the source for this? Who or what is Irenaeus's and Epiphanius's source? Hegesippus?

Sure. And as I said above, whether his sources are true is another matter.

[John2]

Ben wrote:

The whole "founder of sects" thing looks like a misquote of Lightfoot to me, unless a passage can be found in which Lightfoot says that. What I have found is Lightfoot saying, "We find the names of some archheretics mentioned in the Talmuds, though we cannot say they were the same men." That is from here: https://books.google.com/books?id=-SlWA ... 22&f=false.

Oh, I remember that. Thanks for reminding me.