The Judaizers would have favored the idea of an earthly Messiah

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Giuseppe
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Re: The Judaizers would have favored the idea of an earthly Messiah

Post by Giuseppe »

If Paul could become all things to all "men" then he could surely tell a story as concrete and easy to visualize and understand as, say, a story of the Ascension of Isaiah. That's not philosophical or abstract at all.
yes but in the intention of Paul that story à la Ascension of Isaiah had to be propedeutic to a best understanding of the crucifixion as a cosmic event (= the giant-like Son fiXed on the entire universe).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Judaizers would have favored the idea of an earthly Messiah

Post by Secret Alias »

Here's what's stupid with your approach. While the Jews may have favored the idea of the messiah being a material human being, they still left open the expectation for the re-appearance of the anthropomorphic god of the Pentateuch. By a sloppy identification of Jesus as 'Christ' we are sandwiched into an inherently stupid idea that the Jews didn't accept the existence of an anthropomorphic god or that Jesus could have been this god for the Jews. It is best not to post so much nonsense. A lot of what you do is just reshape the existing evidence to support whatever you want. We simply don't know a lot about early Christianity and likely never will.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Re: The Judaizers would have favored the idea of an earthly Messiah

Post by Giuseppe »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:10 am Here's what's stupid with your approach. While the Jews may have favored the idea of the messiah being a material human being,
so you admit that the Judaizers would have favored an earthly Jesus to convert other Jews.
they still left open the expectation for the re-appearance of the anthropomorphic god of the Pentateuch.
where is the objection to my point, precisely?

By a sloppy identification of Jesus as 'Christ' we are sandwiched into an inherently stupid idea that the Jews didn't accept the existence of an anthropomorphic god or that Jesus could have been this god for the Jews. It is best not to post so much nonsense.
what is the your point?
A lot of what you do is just reshape the existing evidence to support whatever you want. We simply don't know a lot about early Christianity and likely never will.
the agnosticism has to be addressed also towards who argues that the early Christians could satisfy themselves with a stupid story à la Ascension of Isaiah. Or with a historical Jesus.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Judaizers would have favored the idea of an earthly Messiah

Post by Secret Alias »

What I am saying is that your sloppy use of terminology and ONLY your sloppy use of terminology accounts for this anti-Jewish thing you're on. Let's make clear:

1. the Jews recognized a mortal messiah
2. the Jews also recognized an angel/god named Man who was divine and appeared in the Pentateuch

and

3. the Christian 'Jesus' and 'Christ' who could possible (a) have been either and (b) whom Jews necessarily accepted. Get it?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Re: The Judaizers would have favored the idea of an earthly Messiah

Post by Giuseppe »

1. the Jews recognized a mortal messiah
2. the Jews also recognized an angel/god named Man who was divine and appeared in the Pentateuch
I am not denying it. I am saying that to convert not-Christians, the apostles used earthly images to represent the crucifixion. And that the Judaizers profited of this fact to make these earthly images more and more similar to the common mainstream portrait of a mortal messiah.

But only think this.

A cosmic celestial crucifixion is meant also here, in Galatians 6:14 :
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world

How could the "world", the κόσμος, be crucified by the cross of Jesus?

By a cosmic crucifixion, precisely described in the following terms :
...the Son of God was also crucified in these, imprinted in the form of a cross on the universe

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Judaizers would have favored the idea of an earthly Messiah

Post by Secret Alias »

What I am saying is that you're picking and choosing which 'facts' you want to consider and accept to arrive at whatever conclusion you've already set up. If you didn't do that you'd give up because the permutations and combinations of what is possible is almost beyond accounting. We simply don't know and we will likely never know what led to the Imperial-sanctioned Christianity of the late second century. What would we really know about Alexandrian Judaism if Philo's books hadn't been preserved by Christians? To that end we likely don't know countless other Jewish authors and Jewish communities across antiquity.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Re: The Judaizers would have favored the idea of an earthly Messiah

Post by Giuseppe »

Basically, when the Gospel of Peter or Elkasai describe Jesus as a gigantic Man (or even a gigantic living Cross), they are preserving very naively the original view of a giant-like Jesus crucified on a cosmic cross extended on the entire universe.

This view of Jesus is very different from the very thin crucified Jesus of the Ascension of Isaiah. Forgive me if I accuse the Judaizers as the authors of this reduction of a giant-like Jesus to a mere mortal messiah.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Judaizers would have favored the idea of an earthly Messiah

Post by neilgodfrey »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:11 am The Galatians are "fools" because they limit thenselves to the mere earthly image of a god suffering.
If you re-read Galatians 3 I think you will find that that's not the reason Paul called the Galatians foolish. He explained at length why he called them foolish and it had nothing at all to do with images of the crucifixion.

You may hate me for saying this again, but your reasoning is entirely deductive and fallacious. One is reminded of the following:

All men have two legs.
This duck has two legs.
Therefore this duck is a man.

Compare:

All things in the constellations are big
The Jesus resurrected in the Gospel of Peter is big
Therefore the Jesus in the Gospel of Peter is a carry over from the cosmic crucifixion idea.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Judaizers would have favored the idea of an earthly Messiah

Post by neilgodfrey »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:53 am Basically, when the Gospel of Peter or Elkasai describe Jesus as a gigantic Man (or even a gigantic living Cross), they are preserving very naively the original view of a giant-like Jesus crucified on a cosmic cross extended on the entire universe.
Your argument:
  • Only a big person can be crucified on a cosmic cross extended over the entire universe.
  • The Jesus in the Gospel of Peter is big (-- albeit only after the crucifixion)
  • Therefore the Jesus in the Gospel of Peter is a carry over from the cosmic crucifixion idea.
Compare:
  • All men have two legs.
  • This duck has two legs.
  • Therefore this duck is a man.
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Giuseppe
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Re: The Judaizers would have favored the idea of an earthly Messiah

Post by Giuseppe »

Neil, GPeter's gigantic Risen Jesus may be a coincidence, so the Gigantic Jesus and sister of Elkasai. But what about:

1 Corinthians 2:10-11 is describing something of very giant in physical terms (in the eyes, obviously, of Paul):

However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

See also:

Ephesians 3:
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— 2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus
...
18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God


"this love that surpasses knowledge" is the same mistery of which Paul talks in 1 Cor 2:6-11, since also there Paul quotes a scripture where the gnosis is given by the love of God for "whom he loves".

But then why is this mistery described as having "the breadth and length and height and depth" ?

What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" is precisely "how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ", i.e. the cosmic cross described also by Justin.

Ephesians 4:10 confirms again that Jesus was crucified on a cosmic cross in heaven, not on earth :

10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

how could he "fill the whole universe"? Irenaeus knew the answer:

the Son of God was also crucified in these, imprinted in the form of a cross on the universe

Justin also was disturbed by the identity (made by the Gnostics) between the Plato's "X", a cosmic cross, and the cross of Jesus.

The cosmic body of Jesus for the his cosmic cross could be read in the Psalm 19:6:
He is strong as a giant to run his course

Last edited by Giuseppe on Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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