1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

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rgprice
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1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

Post by rgprice »

I've been reading 1 Clement and have been struck by a few things. Firstly, the letter shows almost no knowledge of the Gospels and certainly no knowledge of the Gospel narrative (that I can see). Yet, it does contain a few quotes that correspond to the Gospels and to the letters of Paul.

From what I've seen, it looks like if 1 Clement knows any Gospel it would likely be Matthew.

Here are the references I've been able to identify:
1 Clem 13:1 = 1 Corinthians 1:31
1 Clem 13:2 = Matthew 7:2
1 Clem 15:2 = Matthew 15:8
1 Clem 16:1 = Matthew 23:11
1 Clem 34:8 = 1 Corinthians 2:9
1 Clem 36:2 = Hebrews 1
1 Clem 46:8 = Matthew 18:6
1 Clem 56:4 = Hebrews 12:6

Obviously quoting from Corinthians makes sense in that this is a letter to the Corinthians.

Interestingly, 1 Clement 4 & 5 talk about persecution and suffering, but no mention of persecution or suffering of Jesus is made in 1 Clem. 1 Clem 4 talks about the suffering of figures from the OT and 1 Clem 5 talks about the persecution of suffering of Peter and Paul. Jesus is described as a sacrifice, but there is no mention of crucifixion or the cross or any aspect of any Gospel narrative that I can see, unless I've missed something.

So I find it hard to believe that 1 Clem actually knows Matthew. The letters offers up many examples and lessons from the Jewish scriptures to address the theme of the message, but no examples from the life of Jesus are given.

That then poses the question of where these quotes came from that have parallels in Matthew (and several in Mark as well as can be expected). Of all the quotes I could see, there are several that are in Mark, but a few that are only in Matthew, thus my assumption that if anything the material would have come from Matthew.

But, of course, the other option is that 1 Clem knows of a sayings source, which could have been a source used by Mark & Matthew or that 1 Clem is using a sayings source that was derived from Matthew. Yet another option is that 1 Clem knows of a lost letter of Paul and is quoting from this lost Paul, which was also used by Mark & Matthew. A final, and most controversial option, is that 1 Clem was used as a source by Mark & Matthew.

Does anyone else have any insight into this?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: 1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

Post by neilgodfrey »

rgprice wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:37 am

Here are the references I've been able to identify:
1 Clem 13:1 = 1 Corinthians 1:31
1 Clem 13:2 = Matthew 7:2
1 Clem 15:2 = Matthew 15:8
1 Clem 16:1 = Matthew 23:11
1 Clem 34:8 = 1 Corinthians 2:9
1 Clem 36:2 = Hebrews 1
1 Clem 46:8 = Matthew 18:6
1 Clem 56:4 = Hebrews 12:6
Can you quote the actual verses here?
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MrMacSon
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Re: 1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

Post by MrMacSon »

rgprice wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:37 am ... A final, and most controversial option, is that 1 Clem was used as a source by Mark & Matthew.
I've been suspicious of this (and have also been suspicious of it for Justin Martyr's texts ie. that they were used as a source by the Gospel writers).


Especially when you have noted, -
rgprice wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:37 am the letter shows almost no knowledge of the Gospels and certainly no knowledge of the Gospel narrative (that I can see). Yet, it does contain a few quotes that correspond to the Gospels and to the letters of Paul ...

Interestingly, 1 Clement 4 & 5 talk about persecution and suffering, but no mention of persecution or suffering of Jesus is made ...//... 1 Clem 4 talks about the suffering of figures from the OT and 1 Clem 5 talks about the persecution of suffering of Peter and Paul. Jesus is described as a sacrifice, but there is no mention of crucifixion or the cross or any aspect of any Gospel narrative that I can see, unless I've missed something.

... The letters offers up many examples and lessons from the Jewish scriptures to address the theme of the message, but no examples from the life of Jesus are given.
Regarding, -
rgprice wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:37 am That then poses the question of where these quotes came from that have parallels in Matthew (and several in Mark as well as can be expected). Of all the quotes I could see, there are several that are in Mark, but a few that are only in Matthew, thus my assumption that if anything the material would have come from Matthew.
1. Are the quotes that are in Mark also in Matthew?

2. The passages from Matthew you cite in your post -- Matthew 7:2 (= 1 Clem 13:2), Matthew 15:8 (= 1 Clem 15:2), Matthew 18:6 (= 1 Clem 46:8), Matthew 23:11 (= 1 Clem 16:1) -- do not seem to be a part of what Thomas L Brodie defined as Matthew's Logia - sayings from Matthew 5 and 11 that are Deuteronomy- +/- perhaps Sirach- based (Brodie 2004, Birthing of the New Testament, chapter 12).

He notes that Matt 14.1 to 17.21 depends heavily on Mark, with may have bearing on Matt 15:8 (= 1 Clem 15:2); and also notes Matt 17.22 to chap. 18, while making some use of Mark, is very dependent on other sources, including Deuteronomy 14-15 (Birthing, p. 200; & see chapter 22).

With respect to other aspects of your observations, Brodie noticed "1 Corinthians used Deuteronomy systematically ... it pushed the interpretive process further back, back into Deuteronomy's own roots and contexts, particularly into the Pentateuch" (chap. 13). Brodie noted other scholars had also noted this.

He notes 1 Cor 1.25 to 2.5, with themes of 'the weak' and 'Paul's fear', aligns with Deuteronomy chapters 7 & 9, with its themes of 'the weak' and Moses' fear (Table 21, p. 134 of Brodie's Birthing).
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Re: 1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

Post by rgprice »

1 Clem 13:1 = 1 Corinthians 1:31
1 Clem 13:1 For the Holy Ghost saith, Let not the wise man boast in
his wisdom, nor the strong in his strength, neither the rich in his
riches; but he that boasteth let him boast in the Lord, that he may
seek Him out, and do judgment and righteousness

1 Cor 1:31 in order that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” (paraphrasing Jeremiah)

1 Clem 13:2 = Matthew 7:2
1 Clem 13:1
remembering the words of the Lord Jesus which He spake, teaching
forbearance and long-suffering:
1Clem 13:2
for thus He spake Have mercy, that ye may receive mercy: forgive,
that it may be forgiven to you. As ye do, so shall it be done to
you. As ye give, so shall it be given unto you. As ye judge, so
shall ye be judged. As ye show kindness, so shall kindness be
showed unto you. With what measure ye mete, it shall be measured
withal to you.

Matthew 7:2:
For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.

1 Clem 15:2 = Matthew 15:8
1 Clem 15:2
For He saith in a certain place This people honoreth Me with their
lips, but their heart is far from Me

Matthew 15
You hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied rightly about you when he said:
8 ‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me;
9 in vain do they worship me,
teaching human precepts as doctrines.’” (quoting Isaiah obviously)

1 Clem 16:1 = Matthew 23:11
1 Clem 16:1
For Christ is with them that are lowly of mind, not with them that
exalt themselves over the flock.

Matthew 23
11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 All who exalt themselves will be humbled, and all who humble themselves will be exalted.

1 Clem 34:8 = 1 Corinthians 2:9
1 Clem 34:8
For He saith, Eye hath not seen and ear hath not heard, and it hath
not entered into the heart of man what great things He hath
prepared for them that patiently await Him.

1 Corinthians 2
9 But, as it is written,
“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the human heart conceived,
what God has prepared for those who love him”— (quoting Isaiah?)
10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit

1 Clem 36:2 = Hebrews 1
1 Clem 36:2
through Him the Master willed that we should taste of the immortal knowledge
Who being the brightness of His majesty is so much greater than
angels, as He hath inherited a more excellent name.

Hebrews 1
3 he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

1 Clem 46:8 = Matthew 18:6
1Clem 46:8
Remember the words of Jesus our Lord: for He said, Woe unto that
man; it were good for him if he had not been born, rather than that
at he should offend one of Mine elect. It were better for him that
a millstone were hanged about him, and be cast into the sea, than
that he should pervert one of Mine elect.

Matthew 18
4 Whoever becomes humble like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.
6 “If any of you put a stumbling block before one of these little ones who believe in me, it would be better for you if a great millstone were fastened around your neck and you were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of stumbling blocks! Occasions for stumbling are bound to come, but woe to the one by whom the stumbling block comes!

1 Clem 56:4 = Hebrews 12:6
1 Clem 56:3
For thus saith the holy word; The Lord hath indeed chastened me,
and hath not delivered me over unto death.
1 Clem 56:4
For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son
whom He receiveth.

Hebrews 12:
5 And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as children—
“My child, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
or lose heart when you are punished by him;
6 for the Lord disciplines those whom he loves,
and chastises every child whom he accepts.” (quoting Proverbs?)

So, the interesting thing here is that most of the correlations between 1 Clement and other NT scriptures are to passages that themselves quote the OT. But the one that puzzles me most, and the one that actually stood out to me and caused me to look into this, is the passage from 1 Clem 46:8 and Matthew 18:6, because I don't know where this may have come from other than a Gospel.

I don't see anything talking about drowning people with millstones in the OT or other apocrypha. But maybe there was some other scripture that talked about this?

But what I find odd about all this is that so few references are made to other NT texts, and of the ones that are, virtually all of them actually cite the OT. But it still seems to indicate some common set of passages that were being referenced. Still, the millstone passage is really puzzling.
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Re: 1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

If it matters, the mysterious millstone of 18:6 is also in Mark, at 9:42.

It is not obvious that in the other Matthew examples, Matthew is closer to 1 Clement than Mark is:

Mt 7:2 ~ Mk 4:24 ~ 1 Clem 13:1
Mt 15:8 ~ Mk 7:6 ~ 1 Clem 15:2
Mt 23:11 ~ Mk 10:43 ~ 1 Clem 16:1

Also, what would be the significance if Matthew were remarkably closer? Many scholars estimate that the times of composition for the two gospels would be within a decade of each other, and well before what is usually estimated for the composition of 1 Clement.

Given that 1 Clement is on its face written by an "outward looking" church body (it is not Corinthian, but presents itself as competent to comment on Corinthian church affairs). where would be the surprise if the 'correspondence committee' included members who'd read both gospels in question?
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Re: 1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

Post by Giuseppe »

Evidence that 1 Clement is forgery hence it knew the Gospels.
Giuseppe wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:00 am 1Clem 5:1-2:
But, to pass from the examples of ancient days, let us come to those
champions who lived nearest to our time. Let us set before us the
noble examples which belong to our generation.
By reason of jealousy and envy the greatest and most righteous
pillars of the Church were persecuted, and contended even unto death.

How could the author of the epistle call Peter and Paul as 'Pillars' when only the three men in Jerusalem were Pillars?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: 1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

rgprice wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:57 am1 Clem 13:2 = Matthew 7:2
1 Clem 13:1
remembering the words of the Lord Jesus which He spake, teaching
forbearance and long-suffering:
1Clem 13:2
for thus He spake Have mercy, that ye may receive mercy: forgive,
that it may be forgiven to you. As ye do, so shall it be done to
you. As ye give, so shall it be given unto you. As ye judge, so
shall ye be judged. As ye show kindness, so shall kindness be
showed unto you. With what measure ye mete, it shall be measured
withal to you.
Here is a more thorough breakdown (M = Matthew; L = Luke; X = Unknown):

1 Clement 13.1-2: 1 And so we should be humble-minded, brothers, laying aside all arrogance, conceit, foolishness, and forms of anger; and we should act in accordance with what is written. For the Holy Spirit says, "The one who is wise should not boast about his wisdom, nor the one who is strong about his strength, nor the one who is wealthy about his wealth; instead, the one who boasts should boast about the Lord, seeking after him and doing what is just and right," especially remembering the words the Lord Jesus spoke when teaching [μάλιστα μεμνημένοι τῶν λόγων τοῦ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ οὓς ἐλάλησεν διδάσκων] about gentleness and patience. 2 For he said: "Show mercy, that you may be shown mercy [M 5.7; L 6.36]; forgive, that it may be forgiven you [M 6.14]. As you do, so it will be done to you [M 7.12; L 6.31]; as you give, so it will be given to you [L 6.38a]; as you judge, so you will be judged [M 7.1; L 6.37a]; as you show kindness, so will kindness be shown to you [X]; with what measure you measure, by the same will it be measured to you [M 7.2b; L 6.38b]."

Polycarp to the Philippians 2.2-3: 2 But the one who raised him from the dead will raise us as well, if we do his will, walking in his commandments and loving the things he loved, abstaining from every kind of injustice, greed, love of money, slander, and false witness, not paying back evil for evil, or abuse for abuse, or blow for blow, or curse for curse, 3 but remembering what the Lord said when he taught [μνημονεύοντες δὲ ὧν εἶπεν ὁ κύριος διδάσκων]: "Do not judge lest you be judged [M 7.1; L 6.37a]; forgive and it will be forgiven you [M 6.14]; show mercy that you may be shown mercy [M 5.7; L 6.36]; with what measure you measure, it will be measured back to you [M 7.2b; L 6.38b]." And, "blessed are the poor and those persecuted for the sake of righteousness, because the kingdom of God belongs to them [M 5.3, 10; L 6.20]."

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Re: 1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

Post by perseusomega9 »

I don't have any of my books handy atm, but are those 'matthean' passages exclusively "Q" or "M" or both?
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
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Re: 1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

Post by rgprice »

Paul the Uncertain wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:13 am If it matters, the mysterious millstone of 18:6 is also in Mark, at 9:42.

It is not obvious that in the other Matthew examples, Matthew is closer to 1 Clement than Mark is:

Mt 7:2 ~ Mk 4:24 ~ 1 Clem 13:1
Mt 15:8 ~ Mk 7:6 ~ 1 Clem 15:2
Mt 23:11 ~ Mk 10:43 ~ 1 Clem 16:1

Also, what would be the significance if Matthew were remarkably closer? Many scholars estimate that the times of composition for the two gospels would be within a decade of each other, and well before what is usually estimated for the composition of 1 Clement.

Given that 1 Clement is on its face written by an "outward looking" church body (it is not Corinthian, but presents itself as competent to comment on Corinthian church affairs). where would be the surprise if the 'correspondence committee' included members who'd read both gospels in question?
The chance of having read one Gospel is higher than having read two. If everything can be accounted for via one, that seems the cleaner explanation.

However, it doesn't seem to me that the writer(s) of 1 Clem knew of any Gospel. While a few of the quotes share similarity with some sayings of Jesus in Mark/Matthew, so much is left out that it hardly seems believable that the writer(s) knew the "story of Jesus". Like the epistle of James, this letter provides many lessons and teachings that draw from scriptural examples. Many of these lessons seem particularly well suited for using the Gospel Jesus as a teaching example, but in no cases are the adventures of Jesus referenced. Instead figures from the OT and various apostles are used as the teaching examples.

So, I'm quite confident that the writer(s) didn't know the Gospels.

That leaves the question then of explaining the overlap of the quotations. Most of the "quotes" are actually quotes from the OT that are also quoted in other NT sources, such as Paul, Hebrews and Mark/Matthew, but at least 2 of the quotes don't have an OT source that I can identify.

This implies some unidentified "common source" (oh boy, here I go) that could have been used by the writer(s) of 1 Clement and Mark/Matthew.

Even the fact that the other quotes are ultimately from the OT, the fact that those passages are used by 1 Clem and also Mark/Matthew still implies some common understanding of the material. Given that much has been lot and much exists outside of the OT, it's a fair guess that these "quotes" come from some other scriptural source, but I don't know what that source may be. I've also checked the common apocrypha, at least in English translations.

But even still, I think this does give credence to the notion of some list of sayings associated with the Lord Jesus at the time 1 Clem was written. That list itself may have been derived from Gospels, that's possible, but it seems unlikely to me that a church in Rome would be working from such a list without also knowing the Gospels.
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Re: 1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

perseusomega9 wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:07 am I don't have any of my books handy atm, but are those 'matthean' passages exclusively "Q" or "M" or both?
The "big two" in 1 Clement are both Qish (M = Matthew; K = Mark; L = Luke; X = Unknown):

1 Clement 13.1-2: 1 And so we should be humble-minded, brothers, laying aside all arrogance, conceit, foolishness, and forms of anger; and we should act in accordance with what is written. For the Holy Spirit says, "The one who is wise should not boast about his wisdom, nor the one who is strong about his strength, nor the one who is wealthy about his wealth; instead, the one who boasts should boast about the Lord, seeking after him and doing what is just and right," especially remembering the words the Lord Jesus spoke when teaching [μάλιστα μεμνημένοι τῶν λόγων τοῦ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ οὓς ἐλάλησεν διδάσκων] about gentleness and patience. 2 For he said: "Show mercy, that you may be shown mercy [M 5.7; L 6.36]; forgive, that it may be forgiven you [M 6.14]. As you do, so it will be done to you [M 7.12; L 6.31]; as you give, so it will be given to you [L 6.38a]; as you judge, so you will be judged [M 7.1; L 6.37a]; as you show kindness, so will kindness be shown to you [X]; with what measure you measure, by the same will it be measured to you [M 7.2b; L 6.38b]."

1 Clement 46.7b-8: 7b Remember the words of our Lord Jesus [μνήσθητε τῶν λόγων τοῦ κυρίου Ἰησου], 8 for he said, "Woe to that human! It were good for him if he had not been born [M 18.7; 26.24; K 14.21] rather than to scandalize one of my elect ones. It were better for him to have a millstone cast about his neck and be drowned in the sea than to have corrupted one of my elect ones [M 18.6; K 9.42; L 17.2]."

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