1 Clement & the Gospel of Matthew?

[Giuseppe]

I remember somewhere Roger Parvus quoting Loisy about 1 Clement being anti-marcionite. If the premise is true, then the Clement's ignorance about the gospels proves that the copy-right on the latter was still in possession of the "heretical" tradition, when Clement was written.

I would insist on this particular point. Frankly, I don't like 1 Clement. My suspicion is that it was a real fraud, not even a "pious" fraud. The his case is different from Hebrews, where really the silence about a Gospel Jesus is sound and real. I don't wonder if Couchoud was right about 1 Clement being of the same catholic editor of the marcionite proto-Luke.

Hence, I hope that RG Price doesn't use 1 Clement as part of the unexpected "conspiracy" of silence against the Gospel Jesus. In the case of 1 Clement the conspiracy is expected.

[Giuseppe]

Further evidence that 1 Clement knew the Gospels:

μεγαλοπρεπής appears 7 times in the epistle to Corinthians of Clement. But also in 2 Peter 1:15-19.

1 Peter 3:19–20; 4:6. the first epistle of Peter is connected with the pastoral epistles through a curious prohibition against women not having to braid their hair. This weaving of hair was the custom in the time of Antoninus (1 Peter 3:3; 1 Timothy 2:9). It is also related to Clement through the aphorism "Charity covers the multitude of sins" (1 Peter 4:8; 1 Clement 49:5).

The following passage is based on Luke's Magnificat.

1 Clem. 59:3 [Grant unto us, Lord,] that we may set our hope on Thy Name which is the primal source of all creation, and open the eyes of our hearts, that we may know Thee, who alone abidest Highest in the lofty, Holy in the holy; who layest low in the insolence of the proud, who settest the lowly on high, and bringest the lofty low; who makest rich and makest poor; who killest and makest alive; who alone art the Benefactor of spirits and the God of all flesh; who lookest into the abysses, who scanest the works of man; the Succor of them that are in peril, the Savior of them that are in despair; The Creator and Overseer of every spirit; who multipliest the nations upon earth, and hast chosen out from all men those that love Thee through Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, through whom Thou didst instruct us, didst sanctify us, didst honor us.
1 Clem. 59:4 We beseech Thee, Lord and Master, to be our help and succor. Save those among us who are in tribulation; have mercy on the lowly; lift up the fallen; show Thyself unto the needy; heal the ungodly; convert the wanderers of Thy people; feed the hungry; release our prisoners; raise up the weak; comfort the fainthearted. Let all the Gentiles know that Thou art the God alone, and Jesus Christ is Thy Son, and we are Thy people and the sheep of Thy pasture.
1 Clem. 60:1 Thou through Thine operations didst make manifest the everlasting fabric of the world. Thou, Lord, didst create the earth. Thou that art faithful throughout all generations, righteous in Thy judgments, marvelous in strength and excellence, Thou that art wise in creating and prudent in establishing that which Thou hast made, that art good in the things which are seen and faithful with them that trust on Thee, pitiful and compassionate, forgive us our iniquities and our unrighteousnesses and our transgressions and shortcomings.
1 Clem. 60:2 Lay not to our account every sin of Thy servants and Thine handmaids, but cleanse us with the cleansing of Thy truth, and guide our steps to walk in holiness and righteousness and singleness of heart and to do such things as are good and well pleasing in Thy sight and in the sight of our rulers.
1 Clem. 60:3 Yea, Lord, make Thy face to shine upon us in peace for our good, that we may be sheltered by Thy mighty hand and delivered from every sin by Thine uplifted arm. And deliver us from them that hate us wrongfully.
1 Clem. 60:4 Give concord and peace to us and to all that dwell on the earth, as Thou gavest to our fathers, when they called on Thee in faith and truth with holiness, [that we may be saved,] while we render obedience to Thine almighty and most excellent Name, and to our rulers and governors upon the earth.
1 Clem. 61:1 Thou, Lord and Master, hast given them the power of sovereignty through Thine excellent and unspeakable might, that we knowing the glory and honor which Thou hast given them may submit ourselves unto them, in nothing resisting Thy will. Grant unto them therefore, O Lord, health peace, concord, stability, that they may administer the government which Thou hast given them without failure.

[Ben C. Smith]

Further evidence that 1 Clement knew the Gospels:

μεγαλοπρεπής appears 7 times in the epistle to Corinthians of Clement. But also in 2 Peter 1:15-19.

So do Plato, Herodotus, Xenophon, Plutarch, Josephus, Diogenes Laertius, Isocrates, and plenty more. It was a good Greek word available at any time to virtually anybody writing in Greek.

[Giuseppe]

And what about the rest of the my argument going in the same direction?

1 Peter 3:19–20; 4:6. the first epistle of Peter is connected with the pastoral epistles through a curious prohibition against women not having to braid their hair. This weaving of hair was the custom in the time of Antoninus (1 Peter 3:3; 1 Timothy 2:9). It is also related to Clement through the aphorism "Charity covers the multitude of sins" (1 Peter 4:8; 1 Clement 49:5).

[Ben C. Smith]

And what about the rest of the my argument going in the same direction?

1 Peter 3:19–20; 4:6. the first epistle of Peter is connected with the pastoral epistles through a curious prohibition against women not having to braid their hair. This weaving of hair was the custom in the time of Antoninus (1 Peter 3:3; 1 Timothy 2:9). It is also related to Clement through the aphorism "Charity covers the multitude of sins" (1 Peter 4:8; 1 Clement 49:5).

I want to know the source for your claim that hair braiding was the custom during Antoninus' time (but, by implication, not during other times identified as likely for the composition of 1 Clement).

[Giuseppe]

I want to know the source for your claim that hair braiding was the custom during Antoninus' time (but, by implication, not during other times identified as likely for the composition of 1 Clement).

She is surely expert:

Being the daughter of Roman emperor Titus (79 -81 CE) during the Flavian era had its perks. His daughter, Julia, had the leisure time to construct her hair into elaborate updos involving crescent-shaped wire frames cascading with curls in the front, and divided, braided sections in the back. (Party in the front — and in the back!) Many Roman women of leisure followed suit. The later Antonine Period (96 – 192 CE) kicked the Flavian hairstyle up a notch: The curls were lowered a bit in the front, and the braids coiled at the back of the head were moved into a more prominent position on top of the head. So fly.

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/44603

[Ben C. Smith]

I want to know the source for your claim that hair braiding was the custom during Antoninus' time (but, by implication, not during other times identified as likely for the composition of 1 Clement).

She is surely expert:

Being the daughter of Roman emperor Titus (79 -81 CE) during the Flavian era had its perks. His daughter, Julia, had the leisure time to construct her hair into elaborate updos involving crescent-shaped wire frames cascading with curls in the front, and divided, braided sections in the back. (Party in the front — and in the back!) Many Roman women of leisure followed suit. The later Antonine Period (96 – 192 CE) kicked the Flavian hairstyle up a notch: The curls were lowered a bit in the front, and the braids coiled at the back of the head were moved into a more prominent position on top of the head. So fly.

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/44603

That is not saying what you want it to say.

[Giuseppe]

It is sufficient to see this link to realize that that particular vogue was current especially under the Antonine time (quasi obsessive, I would say):


http://jeannedepompadour.blogspot.com/2 ... 5.html?m=1

Note how differently from previous emperors, even Hadrian and Antoninus Pius respected that hair style.

[Ben C. Smith]

It is sufficient to see this link to realize that that particular vogue was current especially under the Antonine time (quasi obsessive, I would say):


http://jeannedepompadour.blogspot.com/2 ... 5.html?m=1

Note how differently from previous emperors, even Hadrian and Antoninus Pius respected that hair style.

Male emperors being interested in this elaborate hairstyle is irrelevant, since the injunctions are for females only.

Also, the injunctions merely mention braids, whereas the hairstyle you are pointing out, with its carefully placed curls and wire frames (!) and the works, is way more than just braids, which, according to your own first link, "have consistently remained au courant across centuries, continents, and genders."

[Jax]

I wonder if someone could help me out here. I'm sure that this subject must have come up before but here goes. In 1 Clement the author is talking at one point about the sacrifices in Jerusalem that are still going on, doesn't this imply a period before the Jewish Roman war?

Would love to read some older threads on this.

Thanks

Lane