What is the meaning of “Σὺ λέγεις” ?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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What is the meaning of “Σὺ λέγεις” ?

Post by Giuseppe »

By removing all the midrash and various embellishments and polemical theological motives, I think and believe that the Earliest Gospel - the earliest invented story that de facto euhemerized the deity Jesus on the earth, and on which all the other authors derived their stories - had this final:

They led Jesus to the high priest,

and the elders and the scribes gathered and,

the morning come, they took counsel and,

having bound him, they brought him to Pilate.

Pilate asked him: “Are you the king of the Jews?”

Jesus asked, “You say so”.

Then Pilate handed Jesus, having him flogged, to be crucified.


It is clear that:
  • the Jews are evil actors.
  • Pilate is an evil actor.
What is not clear, is the meaning of “You say so”:

is Jesus answering positively to the Pilate's question?

Or the sense is:

You say so, I don't. (TU DICES. EGO NON)

This problem has troubled the mythicist Paul-Louis Couchoud, since he argued for the latter option when he supported the marcionite priority, and then this same scholar wrote these words, later, clearly denying the previous conclusion:

Before Pilate, Jesus is formally accused of proclaiming himself Christ, a King (Luke 23: 2), and when Pilate asks him if he is (a king), he does not contradict him. Thus there is no doubt. The one crucified in truth is really Jesus the Christ.

(P.-L. COUCHOUD E R. STAHL, Premiers ecrits du Christianisme — pag. 139-161 — Paris, 1930, my bold)

The problem with these two interpretations is that both assume the existence of previous Gospels. Who supports the marcionite interpretation has to assume that there was a rival gospel where an earthly Jesus was proclaimed as the same Jewish Christ, while who supports the judaizing interpretation has to assume that there was some rival gospel that said that the earthly Jesus was proclaimed as distinct from the Jewish Christ. In both the cases, the solution assumes the involving of rival gospels. This scenario is not expected if the story above has to be the Earliest Gospel.


A more simple solution, one that doesn't appeal to the existence of rival gospels, is proposed indirectly by Jonhatan Schwiebert, Jesus's Question to Pilate in Mark 15:2:

A narrative-critical reading of Jesus's ambiguous reply to Pilate in Mark 15:2 is significantly enhanced if that reply is interpreted as a question. Although this interpretation has occasionally been suggested, a full case for its value has so far not been advanced, despite the linguistic, grammatical, and narrative plausibility of the interpretation. This article makes that case, with special attention to the relationship of this question to the characterization of Jesus in Mark.

(my bold)
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... n_Mark_152

In short, the Earliest Gospel has to be re-written so:


They led Jesus to the high priest,

and the elders and the scribes gathered and,

the morning come, they took counsel and,

having bound him, they brought him to Pilate.

Pilate asked him: “Are you the king of the Jews?”

Jesus asked, “Do you say so?”.

Then Pilate handed Jesus, having him flogged, to be crucified.

Hence, the author of the Earliest Gospel left the Pilate's question suspended, sending it back to the reader. It is the reader who has to decide the true identity of Jesus.


The problem of this interpretation is that it contradicts the clear premise of above (that Pilate is an evil actor), since a Pilate who has to ask himself about the true identity of Jesus, a dubious Pilate, is by definition a good Pilate, contra factum that what was sufficient for Pilate to puth Jesus to death was simply the echo of a positive answer to his question about the his presumed claim to throne of Judea.

Now, a solution to this problem may be given by the fact that the Earliest Gospel was also a collection of sayings. Imagine about this possibility. You have before a list of propositions of the kind: «Jesus has said»...


Jesus has said: «».

Jesus has said: «».

Jesus has said: «».

Jesus has said: «».

...

Jesus has said: «».

Jesus has said: «».

Jesus has said: «».

They led Jesus to the high priest,

and the elders and the scribes gathered and,

the morning come, they took counsel and,

having bound him, they brought him to Pilate.

Pilate asked him: “Are you the king of the Jews?”

Jesus asked, You say so”.

Then Pilate handed Jesus, having him flogged, to be crucified.

...and then, bluntly, you finally have someone who says something and that someone is not Jesus.

Jesus himself is pointing the difference: who is saying something now is not Jesus.

Hence the words of Pilate have not the same divine authority of Jesus. This means that Pilate has a false view of Jesus.

Hence, the conclusion: Jesus is NOT the king of the Jews.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: What is the meaning of “Σὺ λέγεις” ?

Post by Giuseppe »

I have a serious problem. From one hand, I think that in Mark the Jesus's answer to Pilate, «TU DICES», is a Judaizing trace confirming Jesus as "king of Jews", but from the other hand, the following table obliges me to consider the Jesus's answer in Marcion: You say that I am.”, as condemning the sinedrites as Judaizers (they say that Jesus is the Christ, not Jesus).

MarkMarcion/LukeMatthew

But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.
Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

"I am," said Jesus, "and all of you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven."

(Mark 14:61-62)

They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?”
He replied, “You say that I am.”

(Luke 22:70)

But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

(Matthew 26:63-64)

How can I resolve the enigma ?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: What is the meaning of “Σὺ λέγεις” ?

Post by Giuseppe »

The chronological order of the texts is the following:
  • 1) the more old answer is found in Marcion:

    They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?”
    He replied, “You say that I am.

    (Luke 22:70)

    Jesus denies that he is the Jewish Christ, while he concedes that his enemies consider him as the Jewish Christ
  • 2) Matthew preserves the answer supporting Marcion's view but he corrects it, by adding :
    But Jesus remained silent.
    The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
    64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

    (Matthew 26:63-64)

    The contradiction is evident in Matthew: if Jesus denies that he is the Christ (by preserving the same answer found in Marcion, "you have said so"), despite of it Jesus claims that he is the Son of Man. But the Son of Man is the Christ. Contradiction.
  • 3) Mark corrects Matthew to confute better Marcion:

    But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.
    Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

    "I am," said Jesus, "and all of you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven."

    (Mark 14:61-62)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: What is the meaning of “Σὺ λέγεις” ?

Post by Giuseppe »

In Mcn, the Jesus's answer is a protestation:

“You say that I am the Christ, not me.”

Matthew has only preserved the ambiguity of the answer, but not the protestation.

“You say that I am the Christ”

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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