Simon of Cyrene and Joseph of Arimathea

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
Joseph D. L.
Posts: 1405
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:10 am

Simon of Cyrene and Joseph of Arimathea

Post by Joseph D. L. »

On the surface, Simon of Cyrene and Joseph of Arimathea (henceforth referred to as Simon and Joseph respectively) appear as two distinct characters in the Gospels. However, on a deeper, purely allegorical level, the two are actually one and the same.

The two are the closest to Jesus during his Passion: Simon carries the cross for him, while Joseph buries Jesus (in his [Joseph's] own, private tomb. An important detail).

Both are allegories for the Christ spirit's transmigration during the death and burial of Jesus.

Broadly speaking, Simon is the one crucified, while Joseph, who buries Simon, is the new host of Christ.
User avatar
Joseph D. L.
Posts: 1405
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:10 am

Re: Simon of Cyrene and Joseph of Arimathea

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Reading this again I can see how I may have confused some. What I am getting at is that Simon of Cyrene and Joseph of Arimathea are aspects of the same allegory.

Now, as far as I'm concerned, Simon is based on a historical figure. Joseph (of Arimathea, an entirely made up place) represents the new Jesus.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Simon of Cyrene and Joseph of Arimathea

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Joseph D. L. wrote: Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:44 pmNow, as far as I'm concerned, Simon is based on a historical figure. Joseph (of Arimathea, an entirely made up place) represents the new Jesus.
Arimathea = Ἀριμαθαία = either Ramoth ("heights," Hebrew plural) or Ramathaim ("heights," Hebrew dual), from Ramah ("height," Hebrew singular); there were several towns by such names, and the derivation is both easy and widely acknowledged:

Harper Collins Bible Dictionary: Arimathea (air′uhmuhthee′uh), a hellenized form of the Hebrew name Ramathaim, Ramoth, or Ramah.

T. K. Cheyne & J. Sutherland Black, Encyclopaedia Biblica: ARIMATHEA (ΑΡΙΜΑΘΑΙΑ [Ti. WH]), Mt 27.57, etc. See RAMATHAIM-ZOPHIM.

William Matthew Flinders Petrie, Syria and Egypt: From the Tell El Amarna Letters, page 170: But it is obvious that Yerimoth, Arimathea, Ramoth, Ramah, are all the same name, "the high place," and we must expect to find many such place-names.

1 Samuel 1.1, for example, mentions Ramathaim-Zophim (הָרָמָתַ֛יִם צוֹפִ֖ים; Αρμαθαιμ Σιφα in 1 Kingdoms 1.1 OG). In 1 Samuel 1.19 it comes out as הָרָמָתָה (Αρμαθαιμ in 1 Kingdoms 1.3, 19 OG). Eusebius' entry for Ramathaim-Zophim in his Onomasticon goes as follows: "Armathem Seipha (Ἀρμαθὲμ Σειφά), city of Elkanah and Samuel. This one lies next to Diospolis, whence was Joseph, who in the gospels is written as from Arimathia (ἀπὸ Ἀριμαθίας)." In Joshua 20.8 OG we find Αρημωθ. Joshua 19.36 in Vaticanus has Αρμαιθ where in Alexandrinus we find Ραμα. Also related is the epistle of Demetrius to Lasthenes (1 Maccabees 11.32-37 = Josephus, Antiquities 13.4.9 §127-129a), which mentions the taking possession of the three districts of Aphairema, Lydda, and Rathamin/Ramathain (Ραθαμιν in 1 Maccabees 11.34, but Ραμαθαιν in Antiquities 13.4.9 §127).

Whether the initial Greek vowel (an alpha) shows up or not depends upon whether or not the Hebrew definite article is rendered into the Greek transliteration; for example, 1 Chronicles 4.21 mentions byssus (הַבֻּ֖ץ), a fine textile of some kind, and the Greek transliterates it, retaining the definite article as an initial alpha (αβακ).
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
User avatar
Joseph D. L.
Posts: 1405
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:10 am

Re: Simon of Cyrene and Joseph of Arimathea

Post by Joseph D. L. »

I was not aware of this. From everything I've read about Arimathea indicates to me that it is not real. Allegorical, even, but still made up.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Simon of Cyrene and Joseph of Arimathea

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Joseph D. L. wrote: Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:35 pm I was not aware of this. From everything I've read about Arimathea indicates to me that it is not real. Allegorical, even, but still made up.
Mind you, I am not saying that Joseph of Arimathea existed, or even that I know for certain which of the various towns by that name the author/editor may have had in mind.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
perseusomega9
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:19 am

Re: Simon of Cyrene and Joseph of Arimathea

Post by perseusomega9 »

The NT uses an iota after the rho, the LXX and Jospehus doesn't. I take it that doesn't matter in the etymology?
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
-Giuseppe
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Simon of Cyrene and Joseph of Arimathea

Post by Ben C. Smith »

perseusomega9 wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:30 pm The NT uses an iota after the rho, the LXX and Josephus doesn't. I take it that doesn't matter in the etymology?
Correct. There is a vowel at that point, a qamatz, in the Masoretic text, but it is in the unaccented syllable, a situation which will in transliteration sometimes yield a short vowel (as in Mark), sometimes no vowel at all (as in the LXX). (ETA: You can find this vowel represented as an eta in Joshua 20.8 OG: Αρημωθ.)
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8048
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: Simon of Cyrene and Joseph of Arimathea

Post by Peter Kirby »

Thanks for this info on "Arimathea," Ben!
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Simon of Cyrene and Joseph of Arimathea

Post by Ben C. Smith »

No problem.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
Post Reply