Paul never attacked Paganism and this is strange

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Giuseppe
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Paul never attacked Paganism and this is strange

Post by Giuseppe »

...unless this is evidence that the epistles were written in places very distant from Judea, where the existence of Paganism around was simply assumed without opposition.

Stuart wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:41 am Digression:
Stephen, I know we differ on this, and in fact many points, largely because we hold that the ethnic replacement of Jews by Gentiles happened at very different stages in the development of Christianity. You think it came about in the process of evangelism, which led to a morphing of the religion away from Judaism. I think the ethnic replacement happened at a much earlier stage, near the beginning of the incubation period in semi-isolated monastic communities in Greek speaking regions set up by diaspora Jews. Of necessity they recruited the next generation from the indigenous populations surrounding them -- they were not only ascetics, they were celibate. It probably took two or three generations for the process to complete. This had profound effects. But this topic is for another thread
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
outhouse
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Re: Paul never attacked Paganism and this is strange

Post by outhouse »

None of the text was from Judea, and we view it all as a product of the diaspora. Yes where pagan practice was normal.

But the real reason is if you attack pagan practice, you attack the Emperors cult as he was the first son of god, who demanded to be worshipped yearly at the feast.

Last thing Paul wanted to do was make his practice a target by Roman officials.
Last edited by outhouse on Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Paul never attacked Paganism and this is strange

Post by Charles Wilson »

For Stuart, esp.:

http://www.syriacstudies.com/AFSS/Syria ... chard.html (Scroll down to near the bottom of the text for discussion about Weitzman)

http://rosetta.reltech.org/TC/v04/Weitzman1999rev.html

outhouse! Good to see you Posting!

CW
outhouse
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Re: Paul never attacked Paganism and this is strange

Post by outhouse »

Charles Wilson wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:07 pm
outhouse! Good to see you Posting!

CW
Thank you buddy! still appreciate your help.
andrewcriddle
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Re: Paul never attacked Paganism and this is strange

Post by andrewcriddle »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:54 am ...unless this is evidence that the epistles were written in places very distant from Judea, where the existence of Paganism around was simply assumed without opposition.

Stuart wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:41 am Digression:
Stephen, I know we differ on this, and in fact many points, largely because we hold that the ethnic replacement of Jews by Gentiles happened at very different stages in the development of Christianity. You think it came about in the process of evangelism, which led to a morphing of the religion away from Judaism. I think the ethnic replacement happened at a much earlier stage, near the beginning of the incubation period in semi-isolated monastic communities in Greek speaking regions set up by diaspora Jews. Of necessity they recruited the next generation from the indigenous populations surrounding them -- they were not only ascetics, they were celibate. It probably took two or three generations for the process to complete. This had profound effects. But this topic is for another thread
Paul did attack paganism. see Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Andrew Criddle
Giuseppe
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Re: Paul never attacked Paganism and this is strange

Post by Giuseppe »

My point is that he never attacked the Paganism with the same insistence/violence he attacked the Judaizers, i.e., "some came from James" etc.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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arnoldo
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Re: Paul never attacked Paganism and this is strange

Post by arnoldo »

Acts 17:16-34 King James Version (KJV)

16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.

17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?

20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.

21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

33 So Paul departed from among them.

34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
bbyrd009
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Re: Paul never attacked Paganism and this is strange

Post by bbyrd009 »

outhouse wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:29 am None of the text was from Judea, and we view it all as a product of the diaspora. Yes where pagan practice was normal.

But the real reason is if you attack pagan practice, you attack the Emperors cult as he was the first son of god, who demanded to be worshipped yearly at the feast.

Last thing Paul wanted to do was make his practice a target by Roman officials.
nice :)
"No Son of Man may die for another's sins..." Ezekiel 18:20
outhouse
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Re: Paul never attacked Paganism and this is strange

Post by outhouse »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:41 am My point is that he never attacked the Paganism with the same insistence/violence he attacked the Judaizers,
Is there a difference between ignoring and fighting perceived heretical traditions?

Again, you seem to think Paul wrote alone, he did not write most of his text, even the 7 attributed epistles were written by a scribe, and how much input paul actually had is unknown, and in fact, he often mentions other co authors in the header of his epistles, he wrote as a community a group effort.

Paganism in the Diaspora was the normal, Pauline text was not trying to push his theology on said pagan population, he was only fighting perceived heretical traditions.
Giuseppe
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Re: Paul never attacked Paganism and this is strange

Post by Giuseppe »

outhouse wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:50 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:41 am My point is that he never attacked the Paganism with the same insistence/violence he attacked the Judaizers,
Is there a difference between ignoring and fighting perceived heretical traditions?
A difference, if it is there, is sufficient to deny the thesis about the early Christianity as a crusade against paganism.

outhouse wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:50 pm Again, you seem to think Paul wrote alone, he did not write most of his text, even the 7 attributed epistles were written by a scribe, and how much input paul actually had is unknown, and in fact, he often mentions other co authors in the header of his epistles, he wrote as a community a group effort.
I don't understand why there is for you an implication between the following claims A and B:

A) Paul tolerated the Pagans velim nolim, while he didn't tolerate the Judaizers

B) Paul wrote alone.

Paganism in the Diaspora was the normal, Pauline text was not trying to push his theology on said pagan population, he was only fighting perceived heretical traditions.
you should explain it not to me, but to the author of Acts (if only you can know who he was):

About that time there arose a great disturbance about the Way. 24 A silversmith named Demetrius, who made silver shrines of Artemis, brought in a lot of business for the craftsmen there. 25 He called them together, along with the workers in related trades, and said: “You know, my friends, that we receive a good income from this business. 26 And you see and hear how this fellow Paul has convinced and led astray large numbers of people here in Ephesus and in practically the whole province of Asia. He says that gods made by human hands are no gods at all. 27 There is danger not only that our trade will lose its good name, but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be discredited; and the goddess herself, who is worshiped throughout the province of Asia and the world, will be robbed of her divine majesty.”
28 When they heard this, they were furious and began shouting: “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!” 29 Soon the whole city was in an uproar. The people seized Gaius and Aristarchus, Paul’s traveling companions from Macedonia, and all of them rushed into the theater together. 30 Paul wanted to appear before the crowd, but the disciples would not let him. 31 Even some of the officials of the province, friends of Paul, sent him a message begging him not to venture into the theater.
32 The assembly was in confusion: Some were shouting one thing, some another. Most of the people did not even know why they were there. 33 The Jews in the crowd pushed Alexander to the front, and they shouted instructions to him. He motioned for silence in order to make a defense before the people. 34 But when they realized he was a Jew, they all shouted in unison for about two hours: “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!”
35 The city clerk quieted the crowd and said: “Fellow Ephesians, doesn’t all the world know that the city of Ephesus is the guardian of the temple of the great Artemis and of her image, which fell from heaven? 36 Therefore, since these facts are undeniable, you ought to calm down and not do anything rash. 37 You have brought these men here, though they have neither robbed temples nor blasphemed our goddess. 38 If, then, Demetrius and his fellow craftsmen have a grievance against anybody, the courts are open and there are proconsuls. They can press charges. 39 If there is anything further you want to bring up, it must be settled in a legal assembly. 40 As it is, we are in danger of being charged with rioting because of what happened today. In that case we would not be able to account for this commotion, since there is no reason for it.” 41 After he had said this, he dismissed the assembly.

(Acts 19)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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