What does "Christ" really mean?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: What does "Christ" really mean?

Post by MrMacSon »

Another dimension is the significance and role of Chréstos [Chrestus] χρηστὸς (XPRESTOS), which appear in Seutonius Claudius 25,and its derivatives such as Chrestians which appears in the (i) extant version of Annals 15.44 attributed to Tacitus, and (ii) in the Codex Sinaiticus, etc. (I think it appears in a church father's writings, too), ...

χρηστὸς - Strongs 5543 meant 'good', 'kindly', 'suitable', 'useful' or servicable
(an adjective, derived from 5530 /xráomai, "to furnish what is suitable, useful") – properly, useful (serviceable, productive); well-fitted (well-resourced); useful (beneficial, benevolent). See 5544 (xrēstotēs).

On the spiritual plane, 5543 /xrēstós ("suitable, usefully kind") describes what God defines is kind – and therefore also eternally useful! "We have no adjective in English that conveys this blend of being kind and good at the same time" (M. Vincent).

["Xrestus ("useful, kindly") was a common slave-name in the Graeco-Roman world. It "appears as a spelling variant for the unfamiliar Christus (Xristos). (In Greek the two words were pronounced alike.)" (F. F. Bruce, The Books of Acts, 368).]

https://biblehub.com/greek/5543.htm
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MrMacSon
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Re: What does "Christ" really mean?

Post by MrMacSon »

An interesting aside is England's present monarch, Queen Elizabeth II, was anointed with oil at her coronation in 1953, but it was considered so holy it was not filmed - the camera's are said to have been turned away as stated at the start of this Youtube clip of a 24H News article.

The lead up is described - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYay408Rd7c
the Archbishop of Canterbury, after dipping fingers Into the anointing spoon, the bowl of which is divided Into two sections, will touch the Queen on the hands, breast and forehead. The ceremony, to be seen by no one, will be carried out under a canopy held over the pair by four Knights
of the Garter. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/62479855
Current Dean of Westminster, The Very Reverend Dr John Hall, said: “It is kept very safe in the Deanery, in a very hidden place in a little box here, which has in it a flask containing the oil from 1953. And it is not just olive oil, it’s quite a complex mixture of different things.

“This is the recipe for the Coronation Oil. The composition of the oil was founded upon that used in the 17th century.

“Then you see what it consists of sesame seed and olive oil, perfume with roses, orange flowers, jasmine, musk, civet and ambergris.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... oronation/


eta: in 'The Form and Order of Service that is to be performed and the Ceremonies that are to be observed in The Coronation of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II in the Abbey Church of St. Peter, Westminster, on Tuesday, the second day of June, 1953' - http://www.oremus.org/liturgy/coronation/cor1953b.html - anoint, etc, appears 22 times, eg., -
VII. The Anointing
The Creed being ended, the Queen kneeling at her faldstool, and the people kneeling in their places, the Archbishop shall begin the hymn, VENI, CREATOR SPIRITUS, and the choir shall sing it out.


Come, Holy Ghost, our souls inspire,
And lighten with celestial fire.
Thou the anointing Spirit art,
Who dost thy seven-fold gifts impart.

Thy blessed Unction from above
Is comfort, life, and fire of love.
Enable with perpetual light
The dulness of our blinded sight.

Anoint and cheer our soiled face
With the abundance of thy grace:
Keep far our foes, give peace at home;
Where thou art guide, no ill can come.

Teach us to know the Father, Son
And thee, of both, to be but One;
That, through the ages all along,
This may be our endless song:

Praise to thy eternal merit,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The hymn being ended, the Archbishop shall say:

LET US PRAY

O Lord and heavenly Father,
the exalter of the humble and the strength of thy chosen,
who by anointing with Oil didst of old
make and consecrate kings, priests, and prophets,
to teach and govern thy people Israel:
Bless and sanctify thy chosen servant ELIZABETH,
who by our office and ministry
is now to be anointed with this Oil,

Here the Archbishop is to lay his hand upon the Ampulla.
and consecrated Queen:
Strengthen her, O Lord, with the Holy Ghost the Comforter;
Confirm and stablish her with thy free and princely Spirit,
the Spirit of wisdom and government,
the Spirit of counsel and ghostly strength,
the Spirit of knowledge and true godliness,
and fill her, O Lord, with the Spirit of thy holy fear,
now and for ever;
through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

This prayer being ended, and the people standing, the choir shall sing:

I Kings 1, 39, 40.
Zadok the priest and Nathan the prophet anointed Solomon king;
and all the people rejoiced and said
God save the king,
Long live the king,
May the king live for ever. Amen. Hallelujah.

In the mean time, the Queen rising from her devotions, having been disrobed of her crimson robe by the Lord Great Chamberlain, assisted by the Mistress of the Robes, and being uncovered, shall go before the Altar, supported and attended as before.

The Queen shall sit down in King Edward's Chair (placed in the midst of the Area over against the Altar, with a faldstool before it), wherein she is to be anointed. Four Knights of the Garter shall hold over her a rich pall of silk, or cloth of gold: the Dean of Westminster, taking the Ampulla and Spoon from off the Altar, shall hold them ready, pouring some holy Oil into the Spoon, and with it the Archbishop shall anoint the Queen in the form of a cross:

On the palms of both the hands, saying,
Be thy Hands anointed with holy Oil.

On the breast, saying,
Be thy Breast anointed with holy Oil.

On the crown of the head, saying,
Be thy Head anointed with holy Oil:
as kings, priests, and prophets were anointed:

And as Solomon was anointed king
by Zadok the priest and Nathan the prophet,
so be thou anointed, blessed, and consecrated Queen
over the Peoples, whom the Lord thy God
hath given thee to rule and govern,
In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

Then shall the Dean of Westminster lay the Ampulla and Spoon upon the Altar; and the Queen kneeling down at the faldstool, the Archbishop shall say this Blessing over her:
Our Lord Jesus Christ,
the Son of God,
who by his Father was anointed with the Oil of gladness
above his fellows,
by his holy Anointing pour down upon your Head and Heart
the blessing of the Holy Ghost,
and prosper the works of your Hands:
that by the assistance of his heavenly grace
you may govern and preserve
the Peoples committed to your charge
in wealth, peace, and godliness;
and after a long and glorious course
of ruling a temporal kingdom
wisely, justly, and religiously,
you may at last be made partaker of an eternal kingdom,
through the same Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: What does "Christ" really mean?

Post by GakuseiDon »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:06 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:05 am "Christos". I'd recommend using the blueletterbible website, which uses Strong's, and where you can see the Greek, Hebrew and English translations/transliterations. The entry for "Christ":
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 5547&t=KJV
With two exceptions: John 1.41 and 4.25, which (instead of translating) go the route of transliterating the Hebrew word into Greek as Μεσσίας.
Thanks, Ben, that's interesting. I always wonder at the impact of a word's use to the audience of the times: to the pagan Christian, to the Jewish Christian and to the pagans themselves.

John 1.41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ [Christos].

Jhn 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
rgprice
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Re: What does "Christ" really mean?

Post by rgprice »

Thanks for all of the replies.

So, when Paul for example writes 1 Cor 1: "Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God" this can be translated as: "Paul, called to be an apostle of anointed Jesus by the will of God"?

In the NRSV in Matthew the term Christ is never used, but messiah is used 17 times. In Mark the term Christ is used 2 times, and messiah 6 times.

Are all of these just choices of translation, with the exact same Greek underlying these words? Is this just a matter of translation choice?

So in Hebrew we have the word "messiah" which translates in English directly to "anointed" and translates in Greek to "christos". In English we now use three words: messiah a transliteration of the Hebrew, Christ a transliteration of the Greek, and anointed a translation of either "messiah" or "christos".

So I'm trying to make sense of how Paul uses the word:

Gal 1:6 "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ."

To take this as an example, how does this really read in the Greek?

Does it really say "grace of Christ", or does it say "grace of the Christ"?

It seems that all uses of christos I can find outside of Christian writings use the term as an adjective, thus is is always the "the anointed of David" or "the anointed of the Lord" or "the anointed" or "who is anointed" or "Joshua the anointed". So it seems here that this should read "the grace of the anointed" and "pervert the gospel of the anointed".

But I don't know Greek so I'm not sure what it really says.

What I'm trying to understand is whether Paul himself was using "anointed" as a title instead of as a descriptor or if that it something that happened after Paul and has been read back into Paul's writings?
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: What does "Christ" really mean?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

rgprice wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:54 am Thanks for all of the replies.

So, when Paul for example writes 1 Cor 1: "Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God" this can be translated as: "Paul, called to be an apostle of anointed Jesus by the will of God"?
It can, yes. But... we also take our cues from how Paul uses the term elsewhere. Some people think that Paul uses Christ as a name, but that cannot be quite right, since names usually come in a prescribed order (Julius Caesar, not Caesar Julius; Ben Smith, not Smith Ben). Rather, Paul uses Christ as an epithet, rather like Augustus (Augustus Caesar or Caesar Augustus; Christ Jesus or Jesus Christ). So in this verse I would at least capitalize "anointed" (the Anointed Jesus) to show its use as an epithet.
In the NRSV in Matthew the term Christ is never used, but messiah is used 17 times. In Mark the term Christ is used 2 times, and messiah 6 times.

Are all of these just choices of translation, with the exact same Greek underlying these words? Is this just a matter of translation choice?
I believe so. They are all just translational choices for the underlying Greek Χριστός (with those two exceptions in John that I gave upthread).
So in Hebrew we have the word "messiah" which translates in English directly to "anointed" and translates in Greek to "christos". In English we now use three words: messiah a transliteration of the Hebrew, Christ a transliteration of the Greek, and anointed a translation of either "messiah" or "christos".
Correct.
So I'm trying to make sense of how Paul uses the word:

Gal 1:6 "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ."

To take this as an example, how does this really read in the Greek?

Does it really say "grace of Christ", or does it say "grace of the Christ"?
Verses 6-7 have "grace of Christ" but "gospel of the Christ." But definite articles in Greek can be funny; the do not always work like definite articles in English. Also, there are some textual variants in verse 6 around the name Christ. Some manuscripts, including (apparently) Ƿ46, have "called you in grace," without "of Christ," whereas a few others have "of God." Also, some have "of Jesus Christ."
It seems that all uses of christos I can find outside of Christian writings use the term as an adjective, thus is is always the "the anointed of David" or "the anointed of the Lord" or "the anointed" or "who is anointed" or "Joshua the anointed". So it seems here that this should read "the grace of the anointed" and "pervert the gospel of the anointed".
Well, χριστός is an adjective. It is not a noun. However, adjectives can be used substantively (both in Greek and in English), almost as if they were nouns. That is the case with "the anointed." It is still an adjective, but it is functioning more like a noun in that instance.

There is really no difference between "the Christ of God" (τὸν χριστὸν τοῦ θεοῦ, "God's anointed") in Luke 9.20 and "the Christ of the Lord" (Χριστοῦ κυρίου, "the Lord's anointed") in Psalms of Solomon 18.7. Both are substantive uses of the adjective χριστός. The real difference, I think you will find, is in how Christians (as explained above) can use Christ an an epithet or an honorific for Jesus. I doubt one will see this elsewhere very often, which makes sense, since only Christians thought that their Messiah/Christ/Anointed had already come and had a name. No name = nothing to which to attach an epithet.
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MrMacSon
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Re: What does "Christ" really mean?

Post by MrMacSon »

MrMacSon wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:38 pm
["Xrestus ("useful, kindly") was a common slave-name in the Graeco-Roman world. IIt "appears as a spelling variant for the unfamiliar Christus (Xristos). (In Greek the two words were pronounced alike.)" (F. F. Bruce, The Books of Acts, 368).]

https://biblehub.com/greek/5543.htm
Yes, Chrestus [Chréstos] χρηστὸς (XPRESTOS) was a common slave name - but it might not have been a spelling variant of χριστός (especially in other uses).
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MrMacSon
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Re: What does "Christ" really mean?

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[re] "...the problem [of] whether the Chrestians ... of the Roman historian [Tacitus, Annals 15.44] were really Christians in our meaning of the word or were distinct from them. Edwin Johnson regards the Chrestians as followers of the “good god” (Chrestus), as the Gnostics called their god in opposition to Jahveh, whom they looked upon as the perversely conceived creator of the Jews. [Johnson] thus traces the name to a sect, the founder of which he considers to have been Simon the Magician, flourishing in Rome in the time of Claudius, whose members, as representatives of a spiritualised Judaism, were very obnoxious to the traditional Jew.[78] [Johnson] supposes that Tacitus transferred to the time of Nero the hatred of the Christians which animated the Jews of his own time, and thus the Chrestians (Gnostics) were confused with the real Christians.

Possibly, however, the name is only another expression for Messianists, and the Chrestians of Tacitus [were] Jews exalted by eschatological ideas, living in expectation of a speedy end of the world by fire, and so contract[ed] the suspicion of having set fire to the city. They may have formed a “multitude ingens” and incurred “the hatred of the human race” by being led in their fanaticism to express their satisfaction at the burning of the metropolis; possibly they even took part in it. However that may be, there is not the least proof in any case of a Neronian persecution of the Christians."

Arthur Drews in The Witnesses to the Historicity of Jesus, Part 2, Section 2, Tacitus

78. Edwin Johnson's 1887 Antiqua Mater, pp. 279-292.
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