Why are there unattributed quotations in the books?

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Why are there unattributed quotations in the books?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:54 am
Seidensticker wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:49 am I was browsing "Excerpts of Theodotus" http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... dotus.html. I'm wondering what explains all the quotations. Some are given attributions, but other are just quotes for no obvious reason.

For example:
"Shine forth as the sun," or in the sun

Why is "Shine forth as the sun" in quotes? All I can think of is that this fragment was plausibly gotten from the canonical New Testament (in this case, Matthew 13:43 "Then the righteous will shine like the sun").

Thanks for any help.
FWIW http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... dotus.html should be referred to as Selections from the prophetic scriptures or some similar title. The real Excerpts of Theodotus is here.
The confusion between these two texts has always been a pain. I can never the two straight.
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Re: Why are there unattributed quotations in the books?

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MrMacSon wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:25 amI agree it's just supposition that Theodotus got "Shine forth as the sun" from Matt 13:43.

There are six other references to Matthew wrt passages from the NT book of Matthew in the new advent page for this document.

I think far too often that such passages - especially in 2nd century texts - are said to be derived from canonical texts without justification for doing so and without acknowledgement such mentions could be incidental or coincidental, or could even have found their way into canonical books from documents such as this, especially given the recent propositions that the synoptic gospels were [mostly] written in the mid to late 2nd century.
This particular reference hardly seems coincidental, just as it is not coincidental in the Rununciation of Boniface.

However, I completely agree that, especially in century II, such quotations may or may not come from our canonical texts; they may come from source texts or from earlier editions of our canonical texts.
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Re: Why are there unattributed quotations in the books?

Post by Seidensticker »

Ben: "This particular reference hardly seems coincidental"

But I might write, "Shine forth as the sun" myself today, and I wouldn't be paraphrasing from or even inspired by Matthew 13:43. This seems like a common idea or simile.

I don't know how you'd do this, but it's almost like you need a confidence rating. "Shine forth as the sun" taken from Matt. 13:43 might get a "maybe, maybe not" rating, while a deliberate direct quote that matches nicely would get a "certain" rating.
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Re: Why are there unattributed quotations in the books?

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Seidensticker wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:53 am Ben: "This particular reference hardly seems coincidental"

But I might write, "Shine forth as the sun" myself today, and I wouldn't be paraphrasing from or even inspired by Matthew 13:43. This seems like a common idea or simile.

I don't know how you'd do this, but it's almost like you need a confidence rating. "Shine forth as the sun" taken from Matt. 13:43 might get a "maybe, maybe not" rating, while a deliberate direct quote that matches nicely would get a "certain" rating.
In the abstract, I agree. But not in this case. The phrase reads like a parallel to the original phrase being exposited ("and in the sun he has set his tabernacle"), and it comes with its own commentary: "or in the sun, since an angel high in command is in the sun." This is put forward as a viable alternative to "as the sun" so as to align the wording with the original quotation (ἐν τῷ ἡλίῳ ~ ἐν ἡλίῳ). So "shine forth as the sun" is obviously taken from another source (or from the culture as a freestanding saying), not from the author's own free word choice.
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Re: Why are there unattributed quotations in the books?

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I was thinking yesterday there was a lot of reference to the sun in "Excerpts of Theodotus" [and water, but I'll set water aside for now]. It starts, -

1. Those around Sedrach, Misak, and Abednago in the furnace of fire say as they praise God, "Bless, ye heavens, the Lord; praise and exalt Him for ever;" then, "Bless, ye angels, the Lord ... Daniel adds, "Let every power bless the Lord;" then, further, "Bless the Lord, sun and moon;"

then, a brief mention in the middle, -

26. Thus also, then, when God is called "a consuming fire," it is because a name and sign, not of wickedness, but of power, is to be selected. For as fire is the most potent of the elements, and masters all things; so also God is all-powerful and almighty, who is able to hold, to create, to make, to nourish, to make grow, to save, having power of body and soul. As, then, fire is superior to the elements, so is the Almighty Ruler to gods, and powers, and principalities. The power of fire is twofold: one power conduces to the production and maturing of fruits and of animals, of which the sun is the image; and the other to consumption and destruction, as terrestrial fire. When, then, God is called a consuming fire, He is called a mighty and resist-less power, to which nothing is impossible, but which is able to destroy.

then, near the end, it's full on about the sun [underlining, single quotation marks and italics mine], -

56. "And in the sun hath He set His tabernacle." There is a transposition here. For it is of the second coming that the discourse is. So, then, we must read what is transposed in its due sequence: "And he, as a bridegroom issuing from his chamber, will rejoice as a giant to run his way. From heaven's end is his going forth; and there is no one who shall hide himself from his heat;" and then, "He hath set His tabernacle in the sun."

Some say that He deposited the Lord's body in the sun, as Hermogenes. And "His tabernacle," some say, is His body, others the Church of the faithful.

Our Pantaenus used to say, that prophecy utters its expressions indefinitely for the most part, and uses the present for the future, and again the present for the past. Which is also seen here. For "He hath set" is put both for the past and the future. For the future, because, on the completion of this period, which is to run according to its present constitution, the Lord will come to restore the righteous, the faithful, in whom He rests, as in a tent, to one and the same unity; for all are one body, of the same race, and have chosen the same faith and righteousness. But sortie as head, some as eyes, some as ears, some as hands, some as breasts, some as feet, shall be set, resplendent, in the sun. "Shine forth as the sun," or in the sun; since an angel high in command is in the sun. For 'he' is appointed for rule over days; as the moon is for ruling over night. Now angels are called days. Along with the angels in the sun, it is said, they shall have assigned to them one abode, to be for some time and in some respects the sun, as it were the head of the body which is one. And, besides, they also are the rulers of the days, as that angel in the sun, for the greater purpose for which he before them migrated to the same place. And again destined to ascend progressively, they reach the first abode, in accordance with the past "He hath set:" so that the first-created angels shall no longer, according to providence, exercise a definite ministry, but may be in repose, and devoted to the contemplation of God alone; while those next to them shall be promoted to the post which they have left; and so those beneath them similarly.

57. There are then, according to the apostle, those on the summit, the first-created. And they are thrones, although Powers, being the first-created, inasmuch as God rests in them, as also in those who believe. For each one, according to his own stage of advancement possesses the knowledge of God in a way special to himself; and in this knowledge God reposes, those who possess knowledge being made immortal by knowledge. And is not "He set His tabernacle in the sun" to be understood thus? God "set in the sun," that is, in the God who is beside Him, as in the Gospel, Eli, Eli, instead of my God, my God.

There are, to me at least, so many themes and memes that play out on the gospels and other apocryphal or pseudepigraphical texts, eg., 'rulers of the days', in -

Along with the angels in the sun, it is said, they shall have assigned to them one abode, to be for some time and in some respects the sun, as it were the head of the body which is one. And, besides, they also are the rulers of the days, as that angel in the sun, for the greater purpose for which he before them migrated to the same place.

The rest of section 56 is interesting reading, as is 'God "set in the sun",' in 57, and the rest of 57 (though not sun-related), -

57. ... And is not "He set His tabernacle in the sun" to be understood thus? God "set in the sun," that is, in the God who is beside Him, as in the Gospel, Eli, Eli, instead of my God, my God. And what is above all rule, and authority, and power, and every name that is named," are those from among men that are made perfect as angels and archangels, so as to rise to the nature of the angels first-created. For those who are changed from men to angels are instructed for a thousand years by the angels after they are brought to perfection. Then those who have taught are translated to archangelic authority; and those who have learned instruct those again who from men are changed to angels. Thus afterwards, in the prescribed periods, they are brought to the proper angelic state of the body.

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