Clement Read Hegesippus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Clement Read Hegesippus

Post by Secret Alias »

Clement Stromata 3:
The followers of Carpocrates and Epiphanes think that wives should be held in common. 16 It is through them that the greatest ill-repute has accrued to the name of Christ
Epiphanius on the Carpocratians
But they have been prepared by Satan, and put forward as a reproach and stumbling-block for God’s church. For they have adopted the name of “Christian,” though Satan has arranged this so that the heathen will be scandalized by them and reject the benefit of God’s holy church
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Clement Read Hegesippus

Post by Giuseppe »

But Hegesippus is Matthew.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Clement Read Hegesippus

Post by John2 »

I think so too because of EH 2.1.4:
But the same writer [Clement], in the seventh book of the same work [Hypotyposes], relates "... there were two Jameses: one called the Just, who was thrown from the pinnacle of the temple and was beaten to death with a club by a fuller ... "
Cf. Hegesippus in EH 2.23.12-18:
The aforesaid Scribes and Pharisees therefore placed James upon the pinnacle of the temple ... they went up and threw down the just man … one of them, who was a fuller, took the club with which he beat out clothes and struck the just man on the head. And thus he suffered martyrdom.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Clement Read Hegesippus

Post by Secret Alias »

That's a good one too. The important thing is that this is different than people who just copied out Irenaeus (in the example of information about Carpocrates). It plays into the theory (supported by Origen) that Alexandrians knew little or nothing about this supposed Alexandrian sect, the Carpocratians. Hegesippus seems to have been the sole source for this particular sectarian group.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Clement Read Hegesippus

Post by John2 »

It's curious though that Clement and Origen don't mention Hegesippus (at least as far as I am aware). It reminds me of the question of whether or not Origen confused him with Josephus regarding the reason for the fall of Jerusalem, which I've tended to doubt since I haven't seen anything that otherwise suggests that he knew Hegesippus (not that I've ever scoured him, I've just never seen anyone give any examples for it like the one for Clement regarding the death of James, and because what he says in my view resembles more what Josephus says about Jerusalem falling because of the death of Ananus in War 4.5.2). At the same time, it would be odd if he didn't know Hegesippus given that Clement appears to.

Eusebius tantalizingly mentions Clement and Hegesippus in the same breath in EH 2.23.3 but doesn't say that Clement knew him:
3. The manner of James' death has been already indicated by the above-quoted words of Clement, who records that he was thrown from the pinnacle of the temple, and was beaten to death with a club. But Hegesippus, who lived immediately after the apostles, gives the most accurate account in the fifth book of his Memoirs.
I'm starting to wonder if both Clement and Origen confused Hegesippus with Josephus or if there was something fishy going on in Alexandria regarding the writings of the latter two. I realize we don't have everything Clement and Origen wrote, but still, as I said, it's curious that neither mention his name, particularly Clement given his similar account of James' death.

And then there is pseudo-Hegesippus, which I'm not very familiar with and does appear to confuse Josephus with Hegesippus (but is unattested until the fourth century CE).
The name is based on an error. In the manuscripts of the work "Iosippus" appears quite regularly for "Josephus". It has been suggested that from a corruption of Iosippus an unintelligent reviser derived Hegesippus. A more probable explanation is that the work was mistaken for the lost history of the Greek Christian author Hegesippus, which was also composed in five books.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-Hegesippus


I re-read some old posts on your blog (and one from Peter's) that attempt to untangle this craziness but I'm just not up to speed on this issue or with Hegesippus' account of gnostic sects, so I'm curious to see what else you can make of all this.

EH 4.22.4-5:
4. The same author [Hegesippus] also describes the beginnings of the heresies which arose in his time, in the following words: And after James the Just had suffered martyrdom, as the Lord had also on the same account, Symeon, the son of the Lord's uncle, Clopas, was appointed the next bishop. All proposed him as second bishop because he was a cousin of the Lord.

Therefore, they called the Church a virgin, for it was not yet corrupted by vain discourses.

5. But Thebuthis, because he was not made bishop, began to corrupt it. He also was sprung from the seven sects among the people, like Simon, from whom came the Simonians, and Cleobius, from whom came the Cleobians, and Dositheus, from whom came the Dositheans, and Gorthæus, from whom came the Goratheni, and Masbotheus, from whom came the Masbothæans. From them sprang the Menandrianists, and Marcionists, and Carpocratians, and Valentinians, and Basilidians, and Saturnilians. Each introduced privately and separately his own peculiar opinion. From them came false Christs, false prophets, false apostles, who divided the unity of the Church by corrupt doctrines uttered against God and against his Christ.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Clement Read Hegesippus

Post by Secret Alias »

Clement does mention a 'Joseph' who is a chronographer.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Charles Wilson
Posts: 2100
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: Clement Read Hegesippus

Post by Charles Wilson »

John2 --
Plz see Jay Raskin, Christs and Christianities, https://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Christ ... 1413497918
Raskin examines Eusebius as a Master Forger and demonstrates that he manipulated Hegisippus to a particular end. Hegisippus was created for the job Eusebius has in mind.

"It is hard to know if Eusebius has wholly made up the text of Hegsippus or has drastically changed the text of a real historian to reflect his point of view. Since nobody mentions Hegesippus before Eusebius and it is difficult to say that anybody ever read him after Eusebius, the more sober judgement for the moment is that he never existed. Eusebius is just taking texts from other sources to create him."

Note 36.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Clement Read Hegesippus

Post by John2 »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:02 am Clement does mention a 'Joseph' who is a chronographer.
Is that the only time Clement mentions Josephus? That's the impression I get from Peter's blog post anyway, which cites only Stromata 1.21:
… we find a reference to a chronological calculation from Josephus in Clement of Alexandria.

"Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 1.21. Flavius Josephus the Jew, who composed the history of the Jews, computing the periods, says that from Moses to David were five hundred and eighty-five years; from David to the second year of Vespasian, a thousand one hundred and seventy-nine; then from that to the tenth year of Antoninus, seventy-seven. So that from Moses to the tenth year of Antoninus there are, in all, two thousand one hundred and thirty-three years."

http://peterkirby.com/chasing-hegesippus.html


In any event, this is the issue that your blog posts try to unravel, which I'm linking to here for my convenience.

http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/2010/ ... ephan.html

http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/2010/ ... -used.html
Last edited by John2 on Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Clement Read Hegesippus

Post by John2 »

Raskin examines Eusebius as a Master Forger and demonstrates that he manipulated Hegisippus to a particular end. Hegisippus was created for the job Eusebius has in mind.
I don't buy that idea.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Charles Wilson
Posts: 2100
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: Clement Read Hegesippus

Post by Charles Wilson »

'S OK wit' me
Post Reply