The Strategy for Mythicists Going Forward

[MrMacSon]

well, they were moving away from Judaism; and Judaism had become increasingly heterogeneous with Hellenism, etc

[Tenorikuma]

I confess I don't see much of a problem. I still suspect that all we need is a priestly name, so it should be no surprise to find first-century Jewish cults who have been excluded from the Temple and the Jerusalem priesthood venerating divine priests based on historical priests found in the Jewish scriptures — Melchizedek and Joshua. The appellation "Christ" could just be a signifier of priesthood, or it could be that a variety of christ cults and messianic movements merged to form Christianity with all its tangled theological messes. After all, isn't "Christ" a separate aeon in Gnostic thought? (Not to mention 1 Corinthians 1.)

I agree with Blood. The Philippians hymn demonstrates high regard for the name "Jesus", and it may represent a stage of christology that preceded the crucifixion myth, since "even death on a cross" is an addition to the hymn. (Paul's innovation?)

[stephan happy huller]

MrMacSon - if they 'moved away' from Judaism they began as Jews or proselytes. So what I say applies.

Tenorikuma - that might apply for 'Christ' but not 'the Christ.' The Christ = the son of David, the redeemer etc. I don't disagree with Blood with respect to importance of the passage. I turned around that point to Hurtado and said, a Jew could not have said this about a human name and besides the manuscripts don't say 'Jesus.' We read that into IC.

[ghost]

If the ayn in the Mandaean form of Jesus's name was a substitution for the aleph or aleph yod in Ishu then the current Mandaean savior 'Enosh' was a substitution for the original cosmic Jesus at a period where the Mandaean community no longer wanted to be considered Christian.

Maybe Beaufort is worth mentioning again in this context, especially regarding the origin of the John-the-Baptist story and Arianism.

http://www.radikalkritik.de/Arius%20Top ... .11.20.pdf

In Wirklichkeit mag es sich genau umgekehrt verhalten: Hier, in der persischen Satrapie Babylonien, entstand bei den Juden, die nach dem Exil nicht nach Palästina zurückgekehrt waren, der Mythos vom am Jordan predigenden und taufenden Johannes [vgl. dazu Mead 62-70]. Es war dann dieser Mythos, aus dem sich in Babylons griechisch-persisch-jüdischem Völkergemisch das „arianische" (= iranische) Urchristentum der „Kirche des Ostens" entwickelte. Dort könnte der Johannes-Glaube mit der persischen Idee der Spenta Mainyu (Guter Geist) verbunden worden sein [vgl. zum vermutlich zoroastrischen Spenta Mainyu Eliade I, 286].

[Tenorikuma]

If there's any funny business going on with the nomina sacra, I think it's with XC (Christ or Chrestus?) and not IC. Do you happen to know what the earliest manuscript evidence for "Iesous" fully spelt out is?

[Blood]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "Jesus" appear as a name of a god in the Greek Magical Papyri? And "Christ" does not?

[andrewcriddle]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "Jesus" appear as a name of a god in the Greek Magical Papyri? And "Christ" does not?

Jesus Chrestos is mentioned in one exorcism Magic

"Hail, God of Abraham; hail, God of Isaac; hail, God of Jacob; Jesus Chrestos, the Holy Spirit, the Son of the Father, who is above the Seven, who is within the Seven.

Andrew Criddle

[Tenorikuma]

Andrew, what is the story with those?

[DCHindley]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "Jesus" appear as a name of a god in the Greek Magical Papyri? And "Christ" does not?

Hans Dieter Betz, ed., The Greek Magical Papyri in Translation-Including the Demotic Spells (1986)

PGM XIII. 1-343 .... 289 For release from bonds: [[Say, "Hear me, O Christ, in torments; help, in necessities, / O merciful in violent hours, able to do much in the world, who created compulsion and punishment and torture." Say it 12 times by day, hissing thrice eight times.]]* Say the whole name of Helios beginning from ACHEBYKRŌM.
"Let every bond be loosed, every force fail, let all iron be broken, every rope or every strap, let every / knot, every chain be opened, and let no one compel me, for I am" -say the Name.

*The words in double brackets are a Christian interpolation as can be seen by the fact that it creates a doublet - a double recipe for a single purpose - and also by comparing form and content of this spell with those of the others in this series, which consistently contain just the elements left in this when the bracketed words are deleted. The interpolation is interesting as evidence that these pagan magical texts continued to be used by the newly Christian criminal class. It also makes conspicuous the absence of Christian elements from the rest of the text. Since the text with the Christian interpolation dates from the first half of the fourth century A.D., the pagan text that was interpolated was probably third century at the latest.

PGM CXXIII a-f

For childbearing: "Come out of your tomb, Christ is calling you."* [Place] a potsherd on the right thigh.

*Parallels adduced by Maltomini, 82-83, show that in Christian magic a historiola was used, according to which Elizabeth says to John the Baptist in her womb: "Come out child, Christ is calling you. . . ." In our papyrus this historiola appears to have been confused with the account of Lazarus in the tomb, thus attesting the analogy of womb and tomb.

PGM CXXVIII. 1 - 11
A phylactety for fever:

"SARICH	"Of Jesus Christ, son of IAŌ (?),
AORKACH	quickly, quickly,
/ ROUGACH	heal!
CHIOSNĒCH	John,
KOCH."	/ Son,
	Life."

PGM IV. 1227-64
Excellent rite for driving out daimons: Formula to be spoken over his head:
1230 Place olive branches before him, / and stand behind him and say:
"Hail, God of Abraham; hail, God of Isaac; hail, God of Jacob; Jesus Chrēstos,*
1235 the Holy Spirit, the Son of the Father, who is above [or below] the Seven, / who is within
the Seven. Bring Iao Sabaoth; may your power issue forth from him, NN, until
you drive away this unclean daimon Satan, who is in him. ..."

*...Chrēstos, "excellent one" rather than Christos, "anointed one"...

PGM IV. 3007-86
This is the conjuration: "I conjure you by the god of the Hebrews, / Jesus, ...

DCH

[Blood]

PGM IV. 3007-86
This is the conjuration: "I conjure you by the god of the Hebrews, / Jesus, ..."

That was the only one I had remembered.