Did Paul write any of 1 Corinthians 5?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Michael BG
Posts: 665
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:02 am

Did Paul write any of 1 Corinthians 5?

Post by Michael BG »

In 1 Corinthians Paul writes that his converts should not judge him:
1 Cor. 4:2-5
[2] Moreover it is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy.
[3] But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself.
[4] I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.
[5] Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.
It seems no Christian should judge anyone, only the Lord can do it, and this will happen when the Lord comes.

Can the same person then write this?
1 Cor. 5
[1] It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father's wife.

[2] And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
[3] For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment
[4] in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
[5] you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
[6] Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
[7] Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For our Passover, Christ has been sacrificed for us.
[8] Let us, therefore, celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
[9] I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men;
[10] not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
[11] But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber -- not even to eat with such a one.
[12] For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
[13] God judges those outside. "Drive out the wicked person from among you."
This author is saying that the Christianity community should judge this man (verses 11 and 12), that the author has judged this man (v 3). In verse 5 it seems the author is telling the Christian community to kill this man. It seems he also saying that God only judges those outside the community (v 13).

In verse 7 there is πασχα, (Passover) I think this is the only time this word appears in a Pauline letter. Is the “festival” in verse 8 Passover or Easter? If Passover would Paul be saying his Gentile Christians should celebrate it, if Easter was it celebrated at this time? According to Wikipedia the first reference to a Christian festival at Passover is mid-2nd century – Melito of Sardis (died c. 180).
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3411
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Did Paul write any of 1 Corinthians 5?

Post by DCHindley »

Hi Michael BG,

What I did in my analysis of 1 Corinthians (http://www.textexcavation.com/documents ... thians.pdf) was to bracket off the stuff I believe was added by an editor to an already existing letter:

1 Cor 4:1 - 2 [...].
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself.
4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is (the) LORD who judges me.
5a Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time,
5b [...].
5c Then every man will receive his commendation from God. (Compare 2 Baruch 83:3 & 1 Enoch 9:5)

[the bracketed material is:
4:1 This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy
5b before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart]

Then for ch 5:1-13

5:1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father's wife.
2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
3 For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment
4a [...]
4b on the man who has done such a thing.
4c When you are assembled, and my spirit is present,
4d [...],
5a you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day
5b [...].
6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? (See also Gal 5:9; Compare Mt 13:33/Lk 13:21; or Mt 16:6,12/Lk 12:1)
7a Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened.
7b - 8 [...].
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men;
10 not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
11 But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber--not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
13 God judges those outside. "Drive out the wicked person from among you." (Dt 17:7; 19:19; 22:21,24; 24:7)

[Bracketed material is:
5:4a in the name of our Lord Jesus
4d with the power of our Lord Jesus
5b of the Lord Jesus
7b For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed.
8 Let us, therefore, celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth]

It kind of leaves a smoother running narrative when the editorial comments are removed, which I attribute to Paul, a Judean of the Greek speaking diaspora, who knew nothing of jesus or the Christ theology. Besides, it also illustrates the kind of completely different POV of the editor who adopted, and adapted, the original letter. The reasons for separating out this portions of text I can explain later (I am on a lunch break during a training class at work) for anyone who cares to know. There is an explanatory section at the same site, graciously hosted by Ben Smith, here:
http://www.textexcavation.com/dch.html

Still leaves a difference of opinion: don't judge my POV (that gentiles inclined towards the Judean god can inherit the end-times blessed land he promised, along with circumcised Jews), God will do so in the end times, but for the immoral types, you can judge them now, because they are condemned by the Law.

DCH (back to work, boss)
Michael BG wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:09 am In 1 Corinthians Paul writes that his converts should not judge him:
1 Cor. 4:2-5
[2] Moreover it is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy.
[3] But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself.
[4] I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.
[5] Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.
It seems no Christian should judge anyone, only the Lord can do it, and this will happen when the Lord comes.

Can the same person then write this?
1 Cor. 5
[1] It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father's wife.

[2] And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
[3] For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment
[4] in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
[5] you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
[6] Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
[7] Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For our Passover, Christ has been sacrificed for us.
[8] Let us, therefore, celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
[9] I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men;
[10] not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
[11] But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber -- not even to eat with such a one.
[12] For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
[13] God judges those outside. "Drive out the wicked person from among you."
This author is saying that the Christianity community should judge this man (verses 11 and 12), that the author has judged this man (v 3). In verse 5 it seems the author is telling the Christian community to kill this man. It seems he also saying that God only judges those outside the community (v 13).

In verse 7 there is πασχα, (Passover) I think this is the only time this word appears in a Pauline letter. Is the “festival” in verse 8 Passover or Easter? If Passover would Paul be saying his Gentile Christians should celebrate it, if Easter was it celebrated at this time? According to Wikipedia the first reference to a Christian festival at Passover is mid-2nd century – Melito of Sardis (died c. 180).
Michael BG
Posts: 665
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:02 am

Re: Did Paul write any of 1 Corinthians 5?

Post by Michael BG »

DC Hindley, you have removed references to Jesus Christ and ended up with proposed originals that are more Jewish and not Christian. However, you haven’t addressed my main point which is can the same author write such contradictory things – the community he is writing to should not judge, because there is a divine judgement; and the community and the author must judge the man living with his “father’s wife” and kill him, because God only judges those outside the community.
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Did Paul write any of 1 Corinthians 5?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Michael BG,
According to my analysis of 1 Corinthians, I determined that epistle was actually the result of three different letters by Paul (c/w interpolations).
And it happened that the two passages you quoted are in two different letters:
From my web page http://historical-jesus.info/appp.html, "Paul And The Corinthians During The Third Journey"
" The 1Corinthians letter is a combination of three letters by Paul:
'1aCorinthians' [http://historical-jesus.info/co1a.html] (written early 53): 1:10-4:21
'1bCorinthians' [http://historical-jesus.info/co1b.html] (written later in 53): 9:1-27
'1cCorinthians' [http://historical-jesus.info/co1c.html] (written early 55): the rest (except 1:4-9, 11:23-28, 14:33b-35, 15:3-11, 15:23-28 & 15:56 added later. See included explanations)"

1a & 1c were written not at the same time (1c written two years after 1a), and in different circumstances. And Paul was not consistent here and other places: for example compare 1Cor 6:2 with preceding 1Cor 5:13. So I do not see why the two passages would not be written by Paul.
Furthermore, the main purpose in the 1a passage is "do not think I am bad"; however in the 1c passage, it is "expel the immoral "brother"": vastly different.
And "who would judge who" in these two passages is peripheral to the main purposes and should not be considered as theological teaching.

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
Michael BG
Posts: 665
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:02 am

Re: Did Paul write any of 1 Corinthians 5?

Post by Michael BG »

Does the interpolation extend further, down to 6:8? And if so should 5:1a be seen as genuine?
6:1-8

[1] When one of you has a grievance against a brother, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints?
[2] Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?
[3] Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, matters pertaining to this life!
[4] If then you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who are least esteemed by the church?
[5] I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no man among you wise enough to decide between members of the brotherhood,
[6] but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers?
[7] To have lawsuits at all with one another is defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded?
[8] But you yourselves wrong and defraud, and that even your own brethren.
Here the author is stating that “the saints” will judge the world (v 2a). These “saints” seem to include the community the author is writing to (2b).

If 1 Cor. 5:1a, it would run on to 1 Cor. 6:9, which seems to make sense:
[1] It is actually reported that there is immorality among you
[9] Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts,
[10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
[11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
There is similar wording in 1 Cor. 5:10-11 and 1 Cor. 6:9-10. I read somewhere that this is often a sign of an interpolation.
Michael BG
Posts: 665
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:02 am

Re: Did Paul write any of 1 Corinthians 5?

Post by Michael BG »

Bernard, I am not convinced that 1 Corinthians is made up of three letters. I accept that “I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills” in 1 Cor. 4:19 is a shorter time period than “I will visit you after passing through Macedo'nia, for I intend to pass through Macedo'nia,

But I will stay in Ephesus until Pentecost” in 1 Cor. 16:5 and 8.

It is possible there are two letters, the first one including chapter 16 where Paul writes,
[12] As for our brother Apol'los, I strongly urged him to visit you with the other brethren, but it was not at all his will to come now. He will come when he has opportunity.
And a second one written after Apollos has visited and built on Paul's foundations (3:10). The first one could be the reply to a letter from the Corinth Christian community (7:1) and the second one written because of reports Paul has received (4:11, 5:1). However, I don’t think multiple letters are a reason for Paul to write contradictory things: – that his community should not judge because the Lord will judge; verses his community should judge because they will be the judges when the Lord comes and the Lord will only judge those outside the community
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3411
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Did Paul write any of 1 Corinthians 5?

Post by DCHindley »

Michael BG wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:22 am DC Hindley, you have removed references to Jesus Christ and ended up with proposed originals that are more Jewish and not Christian. However, you haven’t addressed my main point which is can the same author write such contradictory things – the community he is writing to should not judge, because there is a divine judgement; and the community and the author must judge the man living with his “father’s wife” and kill him, because God only judges those outside the community.
At the end I offered the suggestion that Paul was defending his "good news" (that faithful gentiles can inherit the blessed land along with circumcised Judeans) from judgement by other circumcised Judeans, but he specifically condemns immoral behavior. As I like to say, apples & oranges, subject to different rules.

Off to work I go ...

DCH
Benway
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue May 29, 2018 1:04 pm

Re: Did Paul write any of 1 Corinthians 5?

Post by Benway »

I do think that chapters 1-4 of 1 Corinthians represent a separate letter which has been made to appear a part of the larger whole. I don't think it was written by Paul. Much of it speaks of Paul in the third person, it places Paul in equal status to Apollos and also includes this:

1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, 3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul”, and another, “I follow Apollos”, are you not being merely human?

That's a pretty graphic mother metaphor in which the Corinthians are babies being breast fed by the writer. That's a pretty odd thing for Paul or any man to think of writing, isn't it?

You don't have to remove very much from these chapters to make it a letter warning against Paul and Apollos.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Did Paul write any of 1 Corinthians 5?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Benway wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:22 pmThat's a pretty graphic mother metaphor in which the Corinthians are babies being breast fed by the writer. That's a pretty odd thing for Paul or any man to think of writing, isn't it?
Isaiah attributes maternal qualities to God somewhere (working from memory here). Also, Jesus compares himself to a mother hen in Matthew 23.37 = Luke 13.34. I am not sure this kind of metaphor necessarily suggests anything about the sex of the speaker.
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
Benway
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue May 29, 2018 1:04 pm

Re: Did Paul write any of 1 Corinthians 5?

Post by Benway »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:09 pm
Benway wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:22 pmThat's a pretty graphic mother metaphor in which the Corinthians are babies being breast fed by the writer. That's a pretty odd thing for Paul or any man to think of writing, isn't it?
Isaiah attributes maternal qualities to God somewhere (working from memory here). Also, Jesus compares himself to a mother hen in Luke 13.34. I am not sure this kind of metaphor necessarily suggests anything about the sex of the speaker.
True. I'd never go so far as be certain about it. Still, the mother hen analogy seems more general than a human breast feeding analogy. I don't know the Isaiah reference. If you remember or anybody else can help I'd be interested.
Post Reply