A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Post by Secret Alias »

It's like the Holocaust. If you see some old person hobbling around you say to yourself 'wow, they made it to eighty.' When it comes to a Holocaust survivor you say 'WOW they made it to eighty.' References to heretical manuscripts are like Holocaust survivors. An actual heretical manuscript from the second century is like a Holocaust survivor living to 80 and winning the lottery. They're very rare because the odds were REALLY stacked against them. Orthodox manuscripts are like - what's the right analogy? Guards at the concentration camps? People who cheered on the Holocaust? People that took over stuff belonging to those sent to the camps? I don't know. But they're not like the Holocaust survivors. Apples and oranges.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Post by Secret Alias »

Commenting on the biblical Book of Numbers, Origen explains the role of heretics within God’s creation, suggesting, as other Christian authors do, that the fire of biblical truth is not only able to refute heretics, but does also shine brighter if elucidated by false, heretical interpretations. While this is a somewhat metaphorical picture, Origen does mention at least one heretical author (Marcion) whose works were actually ordered to be burnt.[3] This shows that the idea of true faith burning and purifying false interpretations was close to the actual act of refuting and literally destroying heretical works, while the act of refutation itself helped to shape orthodoxy. In other words, there is no need for the refuted material to survive.

[3] Orig. hom. 9 in Num. 1 (GCS 30, Orig. 7:54–5): Ubi enim vera fides est et integra verbi Dei praedicatio, aut argentea dicuntur aut aurea, ut fulgor auri declaret fidei puritatem et argentum igni probatum eloquia examinata significet. … ista ergo batilla aerea, id est haereticorum voces si adhibeamus ad altare Dei, ubi divinus ignis est, ubi vera fidei praedicatio, melius ipsa veritas ex falsorum comparatione fulgebit. Si enim, ut verbi gratia dicam, ponam dicta Marcionis aut Basilidis aut alterius cuiuslibet haeretici et haec sermonibus veritatis ac scripturarum divinarum testimoniis velut divini altaris igne confutem, nonne evidentior eorum ex ipsa comparatione apparebit impietas? https://books.google.com/books?id=Ie7CD ... 22&f=false
I think the author is citing the wrong section of the work. I have highlighted the correct reference to book burning. He has to cite the section preceding it to give proper context:
Homily 9.
Numbers 17:1-28 (Heb, LXX) = 16:36-17:13 (RSV) [1]

Concerning the censers[2] of Korah[3] and the sedition of the people against Moses, and concerning the rods among which the rod of Aaron sprouted.

1.1. With God, as it is granted that he is to be understood, there is nothing that is nor beneficial, there is nothing pointless, but even the things that seem alienating to people and worthy of rejection are found to play some necessary role. Now the present reading suggests this understanding to us, which speaks of the censers of Korah and of the rest who sinned with him. For God does not command even these censers to be rejected, but to make them into “beaten plates” and “to surround the altar with them.”[4] So Scripture relates that by the command of God, “Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest took the bronze censers,” it says, “which those who had been burned had offered, and they made disks of these, and they placed them on the altar as a commemoration to the sons of Israel, so that no foreigner who is not of Aaron’s seed would approach to put incense before the Lord, lest he become as Korah and his conspiracy, just as the Lord said by the hand of Moses.”[5]

1.2. Through the prophet the Lord says manifestly in a certain passage: “My counsels are not like your counsels, nor are my thoughts like your thoughts.” [6]

If this case were judged today among men and if an examination were held among the rulers of the churches concerning those who have endured the penalty of divine vengeance, because, for instance, they teach things that are different from the churches, would it not be judged that, whatever they have said, whatever they have taught, whatever they have left behind in writing, all of it should utterly perish equally with their own ashes?

But God’s judgments are not like our judgments. For listen to how he commands the censers of those who have risen up against God’s prophet to be made into beaten plates and to be affixed around the altar.[7] Korah contains a figure of those who rise up against ecclesiastical faith and the teaching of the truth. Thus it is written of Korah and his company that they offered the incense of “strange fire” in bronze censers.[8] God commands the strange fire to be dispersed and poured out, “but the censers,” it says, “since they have been sanctified, make them into beaten plates, and surround the altar with them, since they were offered before the Lord and have been sanctified.”[9]

Well, to me what seems to be shown through this figure is that these censers, which the Scripture calls “bronze,” contain a figure of the divine Scripture. On this Scripture, the heretics place a “strange fire” by introducing a meaning and an interpretation that is estranged from God and contrary to the truth. They do not offer a sweet incense to the Lord, but a detestable kind. And therefore this example [forma] is given to the priests of the churches, that if at some time some such thing should arise, those things that are indeed alien from the truth should be immediately expelled from the church of God.

But if some things from the meanings of the divine Scripture are found inserted into the words even of heretics, let these things not be rejected equally with those things that are contrary to the truth and to the faith. For the things that are brought forth from the divine Scripture have been sanctified and offered to the Lord.[10]

1.3. Yet the command to join and associate with the altar things that come from the censers of sinners can be understood in still another way. First of all, the fact that they are called “bronze” does not seem to be superfluous. For when the faith is true and the proclamation of the word of God is whole, they are called either silver or gold. Thus the gleam of the gold declares the purity of the faith, and the “silver tested by fire” signifies “utterances that have been examined.” [11] But those that are called “bronze” consist in the mere sound of the voice, nor in the power of the Spirit, and they are, as the apostle says, like “a sounding bronze or a clashing cymbal.”[12] So if we bring these “bronze censers,” that is, the words of the heretics, to the altar of God, where there is divine fire, where the true proclamation is, the truth itself will gleam more brightly in comparison with what is false.

Let me give an example. Suppose I take the statements of Marcion[13] or Basilides[14] or any other heretic and refute them using words of the truth and testimonies from the divine Scriptures, as if I were using the fire of the divine altar. Will not their impiety appear more clearly by the very comparison? For if the reaching of the church were simple and not surrounded from without by assertions from the teachings of the heretics, our faith would not be able to seem as clear and as examined. But the reason why catholic teaching undergoes attacks from those who contradict it is so that our Faith will not grow sluggish from inactivity, but will be refined by such exercises.

1.4. This, after all, is the reason that the apostle said: “Now there must be heresies among you, in order that those who are proven [14]. This, after all, is the reason that the apostle said: “Now there must be heresies among you, in order that those who are proven may be manifested among you.”[15] This means it is necessary to surround the altar with the censers of the heretics,[16] so that the distinction between believers and unbelievers may become certain and manifest to all. For when ecclesiastical faith begins to shine like gold and her proclamation gleams before those who behold it like silver that has been tested by fire, then the words of the heretics, obscured with baseness and disgrace, will appear dim …
As such, as any rational person would surmise, Christians burned the books of the heretics as early as the third century. No it's not a 'confession.' But clearly it provides enough evidence to suggest that (a) heretics WERE burned and that (b) their possessions COULD be burned alongside them. How else were unwanted people made into 'ashes'? The context may not be explicit. It doesn't say 'heretics and their works were burned in the third century Roman Empire.' But it definitely suggests that the 'rulers of the church' had the power to do so and did so. How would they be given such latitude? Clearly they passed on the 'heretics' to the secular authorities. Books did not require special assistance. That's why it's not mentioned with any great interest or discussion.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Post by Secret Alias »

Roman burning of Christian books in 303 CE https://books.google.com/books?id=Ie7CD ... rn&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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DCHindley
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Post by DCHindley »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:20 pmDoesn't [Constantine ordering the burning of heretical books] explain why there isn't papyri associated with the heresies in great number. Come on. You really think this is an apples to apples comparison? Imagine I had two sons. Let's call then Son A and Son B. Son A was my favorite. A true genius but died in a car accident at 18. Son B was hard working but otherwise quite boring and lived to one hundred years old and had 18 children. We'd find a lot of evidence of the boring son but no so much of the genius. That doesn't mean that all my sons were boring.

The orthodox burned and destroyed the testimonies of the heresies. As such we shouldn't expect to find a lot of heretical documents! Doesn't mean they weren't there. Just means we are dealing with apples and oranges.
In the Egyptian rubbish dumps of the 3rd & 4th century, Fragments of the NT as well as orthodox Christian works are found, as are unknown gosple fragments, but not too many works of Gnostic heretics.

Maybe this somewhat represents the general distribution of such works, but we also have to consider the fact that when the authorities periodically came down hard on Christians, their written works were confiscated. It appears that they were not always burned, but some were deposited in the town dumps. This is before Constantine, though.

If that were the case, I always wondered why Christians did not surreptitiously snatch them back at night. Naturally, they may have represented musings by interested private parties, Christian and pagan, so we're back to zero again and the distribution was more or less random.

DCH
Secret Alias
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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Police make "drug busts." But that still doesn't snuff out supply.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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The Greek text of the relevant part of "Secret Mark" says:
και εξελθοντες εκ του μνημειου ηλθον εις την οικιαν του νεανισκου· ην γαρ πλουσιος· και μεθ ημερας εξ επεταξεν αυτω ο Ιησους· και οψιας γενομενης ερχεται ο νεανισκος προς αυτον, περιβεβλημενος σινδονα επι γυμνου, και εμεινε συν αυτω την νυκτα εκεινην· εδιδασκε γαρ αυτον ο Ιησους το μυστηριον της βασιλειας του θεου· εκειθεν δε αναστασεπεστρεψεν εις το περαν του Ιορδανου.
The translations of this published in English say "after six days". How does one translate "after six days" here?

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Post by rakovsky »

.....
Last edited by rakovsky on Sat May 25, 2019 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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Its there. Think number six in Greek
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Post by rakovsky »

Right, thanks. Google Translate is awful for Greek.

Another translation issue that came up was what it says after six days Jesus did. The translations says instructed, commanded, or (per Morton Smith Iirc) told him what to do. This confused me, because I didn't get why Jesus would wait 6 days before instructing him at all. But now I think it just referred to telling him what to do that night for the ritual.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
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