A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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JoeWallack
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Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:42 pm ...he had a guy behind him who knew how to take care of it. ...
JW:
Nice one. Now in his sequel Carlson's going to take this and your name as solid evidence that
you know Smith was gay.


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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Post by rakovsky »

Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:29 pm
rakovsky wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:34 amFor me, Secret Mark hasn't passed the test because of the reasons that I put in this thread earlier: the combination of unlikelihoods and hurdles to authentication. It's unlikely, but conceivable, that a lost Christian secret ritual in the mainstream 2nd c. Alexandrian church could turn up in a modern discovery.
Why is it "unlikely" that (in your words) "a lost Christian secret ritual in the mainstream 2nd c. Alexandrian church could turn up in a modern discovery"?
It's not highly implausible, it's just more likely than not.
1. We have lots of records of Christian rituals from that time and since.
2. The Christian churches across the regions typically have matched each other in terms of the basic substance of the main sacraments.
3. Clement, Irenaeus, and the other leaders of the "orthodox" church were attacking the "heretical" churches for having secretive rituals aimed at passing on secret "knowledge".

So these factors make it more likely than not that we would find the "orthodox" church doing what they were criticizing the heretical sects for doing, especially in a long lost, never before known document concerning a secret ritual not known in orthodox church history.

If I was living in 1958 and heard about a document from Clement with that information, I would want to know alot more about the document before passing judgment either way. And one reason for my reluctance to accept it without finding out more would this seeming unlikelihood of finding a document with such information.

It's not that we certainly would never find church fathers saying strange things, it's that such a find would tend to run against expectations. And so it's just one unlikelihood among numerous ones that add up.
Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:29 pm In the OP you say:
rakovsky wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:34 amAn alleged early Christian ritual practice - private gnostic-style instruction involving possibly disrobing and in my reading of the passage, homosexual activity - that was unknown or very rarely known until M. Smith's 20th c. discovery
So is it the "private gnostic-style instruction" that is unlikely?

Or do you have to add the "disrobing" for it to be unlikely?

Or does it become unlikely after adding the "homosexual activity" that is in your "reading of the passage"?
Sure, all of the above. And even without the homosexual activity and disrobing.

It was alittle surprising for me to learn that disrobing was a real part of the Church's baptism ritual. But it's not too surprising, since baptism often involved bathing, and bathing is typically naked. I'm not aware of other church rituals that involve nakedness. If the nakedness was the only issue with the document, it wouldn't undermine it very much.

Or take the homosexuality. I think that Jesus wasn't gay, since the apostles were married and it was seen as unethical in ancient Judaism and Christianity. But maybe He was gay and the Beloved Disciple was his mate. Homosexuality was more tolerated in hellenistic culture. Or maybe Clement was gay, since there have been plenty of gay clergy over the centuries. But for Jesus and Clement to be gay and to have a gay initiation ritual that their officially very anti-gay-sex religion carried through the 140 years between their times and there is no other record of the gay ritual..... ... :? :problem: ... except this Letter by Clement that he sends to another Church leader and has been preserved across centuries by scribes ... without anyone in later times besides the anonymous scribes knowing about it .... .... Look, I am taking a skeptical, serious careful look at this document. And this is just one issue of numerous ones.

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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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was seen as unethical in ancient Judaism and Christianity
That's right no gay Jews.

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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Post by rakovsky »

The main arguments that I see in favor of Secret Mark's authenticity over forgery are:
1. That the discoverer, M. Smith, was a prestigious university professor, and such professionals are usually trustworthy about their discoveries in terms of their honesty.
2. The letter matches Clement of Alexandria's vocabulary and would require major skill to make.
3. The 18th c. writing style would take major skill to copy.
4. It was found at a location where such copies can be found (the monastery).

But each of these arguments turn out to not be so strong.
1. His close academic associate, student, and academic co-writer, the famous Jewish scholar Jacob Neusner, thought that he had the personality to forge it and believed that he did.
2. He had studied Clement's vocabulary and had the compendium that he notated of Clement's phrases. He had been studying Clement alot before his 1958 trip as Carlson documents, and he could have had assistance from another participant in the hoax.
3. The same kind of thing could be said. He had been studying and photographing 18th c. Greek manuscripts before his trip and he could have had a coparticipant.
4. The monastery is the kind of place that a forger could "discover" a forged writing.

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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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rakovsky wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:43 am But each of these arguments turn out to not be so strong.
Compared to...?

Most manuscripts aren’t subjected to physical tests such as carbon dating or chemical analysis of ink (and, in this case, pro-forgery arguments generally accept that the Voss is real and that a forger could make the ink).

Most manuscripts that exist in only one extant physical copy have no better provenance than a scholar or two documenting it in a library and preparing a critical edition from photography. Many come from a murkier antiquities market, with non-scholars in the middle who stand to gain financially.

All paleography can be gainsaid if you believe it’s something that can just be done in a later century by imitating a script that you have seen other copies of.

We’re undercutting the arguments that ground our study of classics and ancient Christianity generally. At which point we might as well join Hardouin or something in saying it’s almost all forgery or at least too suspect to be treated as authentic.
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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Peter Kirby wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:08 pm
rakovsky wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:43 am But each of these arguments turn out to not be so strong.
Compared to...?

Most manuscripts aren’t subjected to physical tests such as carbon dating or chemical analysis of ink (and, in this case, pro-forgery arguments generally accept that the Voss is real and that a forger could make the ink).

Most manuscripts that exist in only one extant physical copy have no better provenance than a scholar or two documenting it in a library and preparing a critical edition from photography. Many come from a murkier antiquities market, with non-scholars in the middle who stand to gain financially.

All paleography can be gainsaid if you believe it’s something that can just be done in a later century by imitating a script that you have seen other copies of.

We’re undercutting the arguments that ground our study of classics and ancient Christianity generally. At which point we might as well join Hardouin or something in saying it’s almost all forgery or at least too suspect to be treated as authentic.
I do think that someone should be very careful about new documents' authenticity. I think that if casting doubt and taking a skeptical attitude toward Secret Mark leads us to be more critical about other documented discoveries, then this is a good thing.

I do think that some other documents have arguments for authenticity in addition to the four that I put above given for Secret Mark.
For example, a copy of the Odes of Solomon or the Gospel of Thomas could have greater arguments for its authenticity if: (A) other copies of it have been found in other locations translated in other languages; or if (B) the document has been attested to in already known writings. So if the Mar Saba letter had turned up in another cave or monastery, or if it had been mentioned directly by another writer to our knowledge, those would be added arguments for authenticity that the Mar Saba Letter currently lacks.

If the major arguments for authenticity of a document are those above, and the arguments against the document are those that have been raised elsewhere (eg. the combination of unlikelihoods, the intersection between the author's POV, interests, his published studies, and the document that he found), then I think that one could similarly cast doubt on those writings too. I do think that serious skepticism is an important part of studying these writings. This is why at the bottom of my list (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2786&p=62053#p62053) I included a section on writings that don't look to me to really be potential 1st to mid 2nd c. writings on Christianity.

Take the "Apocalypse of Elijah". I think that it would be neat if this were a 1st to mid 2nd c. Christian text, but I can't find any scholars who take that view. What I found was at most just scholars thinking that it could be a 3rd c. Christian text that uses a 1st c. Jewish nonChristian text.

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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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rakovsky wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:45 pmSo if the Mar Saba letter had turned up in another cave or monastery
According to you, paleography is not a "strong" argument for authenticity.

Because a forger "could have had assistance," that means, according to you, that the script itself isn't a strong argument.

If the forger could have help and could fake a script, couldn't they also plant another copy "in another cave or monastery"?
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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I think that paleography is still a significant argument, but it's not as strong as it might seem because of Smith's prior detailed studies and many photographs of 18th. c. Greek manuscripts, along with potential assistance, as you said.

Yes, a forger could plant another copy in another cave or monastery, and so the discovery of such a second copy, while increasing the argument for authenticity, might not be conclusive, depending on the case.

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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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But here's my difficulty. You might not like the text. You might want to think it is a forgery because you don't think that early Christians would have written something like this. I do the same thing with the Pastoral Epistles. I don't even consider them Pauline, I consider them to be forgeries and basically ignore them. But when you say that not just you but everyone else shouldn't consider the Mar Saba letter, you have to provide something more substantial than 'I don't like it, it's a forgery.' And you haven't. There is no solid argument here or anywhere why we shouldn't consider Clement to have written this very Clementine letter. So there's no reason not to consider using it.
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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rakovsky wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:33 pm potential assistance, as you said.
No, I didn’t say that the claim of “potential assistance” was a reasonable counter-argument. I was referring to what you said.

One of the things that makes me extremely uncomfortable with the forgery argument is how little time is spent on the most important and salient characteristics of the find - that it was discovered in situ (by their own account) by a recognized, accomplished scholar of the field, that the physical text exists and not only reproductions of it (as proven by the follow up by another scholar who got access to photograph it), and that the hand belongs to a different era and a different language in a fluid cursive script that was only ever used by a limited number of people and that we would otherwise assume to have gone completely out of use, [if not (of course) for the gratuitous hypothesis of forgery].

One of the things that makes me very uncomfortable is that people are willing to appeal to arguments based on supposed general principles that they neglect to study in their own right, when these general principles are at least as interesting as the text itself.

For example, is there ONE known example of someone in the 1950s who ACTUALLY produced a text in the cursive script of the 18th century Greek as used by the Greek monks, which successfully passes inspection by experts as being such a hand?

Not even asking if it were common. Is there a single example?

Can we find such a person in the 60s, 70s, 80s, or 90s? Are there any other examples of similarly-successful imitations of the eighteenth century Greek script?

And... why is a software developer like me the one who needs to ask this question? Why is the profession so lazy about the basics?

There are a lot of anomalies about this text if it is a forgery, for those who bother to look at cases of forgery in general. If you think it’s weird as authentic, it’s very odd as a modern forgery. The modus operandi has no parallel - a one-off successful construction of an original manuscript in a different language and a different paleographical hand that is allegedly produced under the supervision of a genuine and credible PhD’d scholar, who doesn’t use it as a teachable moment by revealing the hoax but who also never gives in to the temptation to do it again.

If you could change one fact, maybe this would be more like our known forgery cases. For example, if there were a 20th century individual who was honing a craft and producing better and better forgeries. Or if Smith were duped by another party. Or if Smith always intended to reveal the hoax to teach the academy a lesson. Or if they made the text less technically difficult to pull off the first time as a fake by, for example, destroying the original instead of leaving it behind where others could find it and examine it. All of those MOs would fit into a known pattern. (It’s understandable if what I am saying about known patterns for forgers doesn’t sound impressive, but if you study the production of forgeries in a general way, you’ll understand very clearly what I am saying.)
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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