Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

(...continue from the previous post)

My point, Ben, is that if you name in a proposition a mythological being in relation with a human being, then it becomes ipso facto extremely natural “to historicize” the just named mythological being (by introducing a human being as working on the earth in the place of the mythological being).

But if you name in a proposition only mythological characters (as it is the case in 1 Cor 2:8), then it is not more a natural operation to see human beings working in their place (and implicitly alluded). We would need independent evidence that confirms us in who is really who. In absence of that independent evidence, the default position is that we see at work only mythological characters.

Giuseppe wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:10 am Let us see. In red I put the human characters, in blue the mythological character:

....


1 Corinthians 5.5: 5

I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 2.17-18: 17

But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short while — in person, not in spirit — were all the more eager with great desire to see your face. 18 For we wanted to come to you — I, Paul, more than once — and yet Satan hindered us.

Revelation 2.10:

10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Now let us see 1 Cor 2:8:

...None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

What informs us that “the Lord of glory” is a historical character, here, differently from the other verses (more precisely, what I have put in red) where we already detect mythological entities (in blue) ?

It is such a waste of my time having to explain things on a Kindergarten level! Between you and Ethan....

The "such a one" is not standing in for Satan. Nor is Paul himself. Nor are the people being imprisoned by Satan! Satan is acting through unspecified (unmentioned) agents in the Thessalonian passage, and through the (unmentioned) jailers in the passage from Revelation.

But Giuseppe has a hunch it is so, so it must be true. It is amazing how everyone who deals with these people ends up sounding like me, it just takes them longer to get there. I must have a shorter fuse ...

Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:09 amSatan is acting through unspecified (unmentioned) agents in the Thessalonian passage, and through the (unmentioned) jailers in the passage from Revelation.

that is precisely the my point! How can you be so blind about it? Since the author is naming human people, then any occurrence of "Satan" requires unmentioned HUMAN people acting in the place of Satan. But in 1 Cor 2:8 Paul isn't naming human people but only and always mythological entities: the demons and the "Lord of Glory". Differently from the pattern listed by you.

Please don't be stupid as Secret Alias.

Giuseppe wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:41 am

Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:09 amSatan is acting through unspecified (unmentioned) agents in the Thessalonian passage, and through the (unmentioned) jailers in the passage from Revelation.

that is precisely the my point! How can you be so blind about it? Since the author is naming human people, then any occurrence of "Satan" requires unmentioned HUMAN people acting in the place of Satan. But in 1 Cor 2:8 Paul isn't naming human people but only and always mythological entities: the demons and the "Lord of Glory". Differently from the pattern listed by you.

You are presuming your conclusion. The question (or at least one of the questions) is whether Jesus is or can be a human being in 1 Corinthians 2.6-8. You are assuming that he is not, but that is the question.

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:22 am But Giuseppe has a hunch it is so, so it must be true. It is amazing how everyone who deals with these people ends up sounding like me, it just takes them longer to get there. I must have a shorter fuse ...

It adds up over time. My patience is vast, yet still finite.

(In my post or posts above, instead of "human," Jesus could simply appear to be human, and the same effect is achieved.)

Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:45 am

Giuseppe wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:41 am

Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:09 amSatan is acting through unspecified (unmentioned) agents in the Thessalonian passage, and through the (unmentioned) jailers in the passage from Revelation.

that is precisely the my point! How can you be so blind about it? Since the author is naming human people, then any occurrence of "Satan" requires unmentioned HUMAN people acting in the place of Satan. But in 1 Cor 2:8 Paul isn't naming human people but only and always mythological entities: the demons and the "Lord of Glory". Differently from the pattern listed by you.

You are presuming your conclusion. The question (or at least one of the questions) is whether Jesus is or can be a human being in 1 Corinthians 2.6-8. You are assuming that he is not.

The default position has to be that. Just as the default position, in a context where only Satan and angels are mentioned, is that they are themselves without human proxy.

Can someone confute the my point about 1 Thess 2:14-16 as interpolation?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4838&start=10#p95180

Giuseppe wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:50 am

Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:45 am

Giuseppe wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:41 am

Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:09 amSatan is acting through unspecified (unmentioned) agents in the Thessalonian passage, and through the (unmentioned) jailers in the passage from Revelation.

that is precisely the my point! How can you be so blind about it? Since the author is naming human people, then any occurrence of "Satan" requires unmentioned HUMAN people acting in the place of Satan. But in 1 Cor 2:8 Paul isn't naming human people but only and always mythological entities: the demons and the "Lord of Glory". Differently from the pattern listed by you.

You are presuming your conclusion. The question (or at least one of the questions) is whether Jesus is or can be a human being in 1 Corinthians 2.6-8. You are assuming that he is not.

The default position has to be that. Just as the default position, in a context where only Satan and angels are mentioned, is that they are themselves without human proxy.

This is nonsense. Just as Satan can hinder Paul or the devil can imprison Christians, so can the spirits crucify a human Jesus. The comparison is direct and irrefutable. Paul and his readers know what/who Jesus is; we are the ones trying to figure it all out, which means that you cannot make that assumption without nullifying your argument.