Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Universal as in

1 Thessalonians 5.27: 27 I adjure you by the Lord to have this letter read to all the brethren

This has quite possibly become part of a traveling collection at this point of redaction. Thessalonica appears to not be the only church with eschatology issues.

So another difference in how we are reading this verse.

I see each NT document as a shotgun blast of doctrine running from the mid first to late second century.

Please don't think I'm not listening to or valuing your points

Oh, not at all. All is well.

Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:59 pm

robert j wrote: ↑Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:44 am … the Jews, who having killed … the Lord Jesus

For those accepting some version of the NT Gospel stories, not much problem here. However, I think a different solution better fits this claim.

Nowhere else did Paul write that the Jews had killed Jesus in such an explicit manner. However, I think that concept is inherent in Paul’s system constructed from the Jewish scriptures.

Paul presented his Jesus Christ as having “died for our sins according to the scriptures”. I think Paul’s Christ was “hung on wood” (Galatians 3:13) --- as derived from Deuteronomy 21:23 and 27:26 --- as a redemptive act in a Jewish tradition to set aside the Jewish law.

And Paul’s Jesus Christ was delivered-over unto death for our sins as derived from Isaiah 53 (especially verses 4-8), and then resurrected (Isaiah 53:10-12). I have elaborated on these concepts in relation to Paul in greater detail in numerous posts on this forum.

In Paul, it was ancient Jews that killed his Jesus Christ within the realm of his source material --- the Jewish scriptures.

I think I get what you're saying, in terms of Paul being able to use the Jewish scriptures as a basis for this statement.

What about the meaning and content of the statement itself? What does the statement mean in Paul?

Are you saying that the "ancient Jews" actually killed the Lord Jesus according to this statement in Paul? If so, when and where and how did the Jews do this (as a possible example, to clarify what you're saying)?

I think you could be right, but first I'd like to know what it is that you're saying.

I don’t believe ancient Jews actually killed a Jesus Christ based on the Jewish scriptures.

But rather, I think the salvific death, resurrection, and redemption from the law accomplished by Paul’s Jesus Christ --- as well as a great deal of the remainder of Paul’s system --- were derived and constructed by piecing together different portions of the Jewish scriptures employing very creative readings. I think the concept that Jews were responsible for the sufferings of Paul’s Jesus Christ is inherent within the setting of Paul’s Jewish source material.

I suppose that I have come to use the phrase, “within the realm of the Jewish scriptures” as a shorthand of sorts for all that.

Now whether or not Paul actually believed his story, the “good news” --- whether or not Paul was a true believer --- I doubt we’ll ever know.

robert j wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:03 am
I don’t believe ancient Jews actually killed a Jesus Christ based on the Jewish scriptures.

But rather, I think the salvific death, resurrection, and redemption from the law accomplished by Paul’s Jesus Christ --- as well as a great deal of the remainder of Paul’s system --- were derived and constructed by piecing together different portions of the Jewish scriptures employing very creative readings. I think the concept that Jews were responsible for the sufferings of Paul’s Jesus Christ is inherent within the setting of Paul’s Jewish source material.

In Galatians, Corinthians 1 & 2, and Romans, Paul has a great deal to say about the death of Christ. He talks about it in apocalyptic, midrashic, mystical, soteriological, and even gnostic ways. But in those central texts I cannot recall him ever attributing responsibility for the death of Jesus Christ to specific people, whether defined ethnically ("Jews"), geographically ("Judaeans"), or historico-politically ("in the reign of Tiberius," eg). For Paul, the death of Jesus Christ is not a human murder, as it is portrayed to be in Mark and the other gospels. It is an apocalyptic event.

From now on we regard no one from a human point of view. Even though we once knew Christ from a human point of view, we know him no longer in that way. 2 Cor 5:16

1 Th 2:14-15 has Paul identifying the Jews/Judeans, tout court, as the killers of the Lord Jesus. Utterly absent from this passage is any theological language. It is a murder charge piled onto a list of grievances against a class of persons. To me that polemic makes no sense in a Pauline context, and only makes sense in a post-war context in which a gentile Church is seeking to define its status as the new chosen people over against the people of the old, discredited covenant.

robert j wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:03 am

Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:59 pm

robert j wrote: ↑Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:44 am … the Jews, who having killed … the Lord Jesus

For those accepting some version of the NT Gospel stories, not much problem here. However, I think a different solution better fits this claim.

Nowhere else did Paul write that the Jews had killed Jesus in such an explicit manner. However, I think that concept is inherent in Paul’s system constructed from the Jewish scriptures.

Paul presented his Jesus Christ as having “died for our sins according to the scriptures”. I think Paul’s Christ was “hung on wood” (Galatians 3:13) --- as derived from Deuteronomy 21:23 and 27:26 --- as a redemptive act in a Jewish tradition to set aside the Jewish law.

And Paul’s Jesus Christ was delivered-over unto death for our sins as derived from Isaiah 53 (especially verses 4-8), and then resurrected (Isaiah 53:10-12). I have elaborated on these concepts in relation to Paul in greater detail in numerous posts on this forum.

In Paul, it was ancient Jews that killed his Jesus Christ within the realm of his source material --- the Jewish scriptures.

I think I get what you're saying, in terms of Paul being able to use the Jewish scriptures as a basis for this statement.

What about the meaning and content of the statement itself? What does the statement mean in Paul?

Are you saying that the "ancient Jews" actually killed the Lord Jesus according to this statement in Paul? If so, when and where and how did the Jews do this (as a possible example, to clarify what you're saying)?

I think you could be right, but first I'd like to know what it is that you're saying.

My question was "What about the meaning and content of the statement itself? What does the statement mean in Paul?" and "when and where and how did the Jews do this (as a possible example, to clarify what you're saying)"?

robert j wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:03 am I don’t believe ancient Jews actually killed a Jesus Christ based on the Jewish scriptures.

Wasn't asked.

robert j wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:03 am But rather, I think the salvific death, resurrection, and redemption from the law accomplished by Paul’s Jesus Christ --- as well as a great deal of the remainder of Paul’s system --- were derived and constructed by piecing together different portions of the Jewish scriptures employing very creative readings. I think the concept that Jews were responsible for the sufferings of Paul’s Jesus Christ is inherent within the setting of Paul’s Jewish source material.

I suppose that I have come to use the phrase, “within the realm of the Jewish scriptures” as a shorthand of sorts for all that.

Yes, that was already very clear and reiterated in my own post too ("I get what you're saying, in terms of Paul being able to use the Jewish scriptures as a basis for this statement").

robert j wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:03 am Now whether or not Paul actually believed his story, the “good news” --- whether or not Paul was a true believer --- I doubt we’ll ever know.

Wasn't asked.

It's possible that my original question is unclear, in which case, if it's more clear now, it should be easy enough to answer.

(If you don't want to answer it, for whatever reason, that's fine too.)

Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:41 am
It's possible that my original question is unclear, in which case, if it's more clear now, it should be easy enough to answer.

I think I have answered your question. If you think that I haven't, then perhaps you can state your question more clearly.

robert j wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:09 pm

Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:41 am
It's possible that my original question is unclear, in which case, if it's more clear now, it should be easy enough to answer.

I think I have answered your question. If you think that I haven't, then perhaps you can state your question more clearly.

In the mind of Paul, when and where and how did the Jews kill Jesus? (If you're not sure, what are some possibilities?)