1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

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robert j
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 --- Interpolation or Not?

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Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:14 pm
robert j wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:09 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:41 am
It's possible that my original question is unclear, in which case, if it's more clear now, it should be easy enough to answer.
I think I have answered your question. If you think that I haven't, then perhaps you can state your question more clearly.
In the mind of Paul, when and where and how did the Jews kill Jesus? (If you're not sure, what are some possibilities?)
When, where, and how?

All encompassed within Paul's creative readings of the Jewish scriptures --- Paul's source material and proof-text for his Gentile audiences--- the ancient scrolls of Jerusalem ---
robert j wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:44 am
Paul presented his Jesus Christ as having “died for our sins according to the scriptures”. I think Paul’s Christ was “hung on wood” (Galatians 3:13) --- as derived from Deuteronomy 21:23 and 27:26 --- as a redemptive act in a Jewish tradition to set aside the Jewish law.

And Paul’s Jesus Christ was delivered-over unto death for our sins as derived from Isaiah 53 (especially verses 4-8), and then resurrected (Isaiah 53:10-12). I have elaborated on these concepts in relation to Paul in greater detail in numerous posts on this forum.
As for more specific details, we are limited to the reminders Paul provided in his occasional letters.
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 --- Interpolation or Not?

Post by Peter Kirby »

robert j wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:26 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:14 pm
robert j wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:09 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:41 am
It's possible that my original question is unclear, in which case, if it's more clear now, it should be easy enough to answer.
I think I have answered your question. If you think that I haven't, then perhaps you can state your question more clearly.
In the mind of Paul, when and where and how did the Jews kill Jesus? (If you're not sure, what are some possibilities?)
When, where, and how?

All encompassed within Paul's creative readings of the Jewish scriptures --- Paul's source material and proof-text for his Gentile audiences--- the ancient scrolls of Jerusalem ---
I've seen and understood the "creative readings of the Jewish scriptures" part and have absolutely no issue with understanding it.
robert j wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:44 am
Paul presented his Jesus Christ as having “died for our sins according to the scriptures”. I think Paul’s Christ was “hung on wood” (Galatians 3:13) --- as derived from Deuteronomy 21:23 and 27:26 --- as a redemptive act in a Jewish tradition to set aside the Jewish law.

And Paul’s Jesus Christ was delivered-over unto death for our sins as derived from Isaiah 53 (especially verses 4-8), and then resurrected (Isaiah 53:10-12). I have elaborated on these concepts in relation to Paul in greater detail in numerous posts on this forum.
When? Was it at a point in time? What are some candidate points in time?

Where? Was it at a place on earth? What are some candidate places on earth?

How? Was it an actual piece of wood and actual Jewish humans hanging Christ on wood? If so, which humans?
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
robert j
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 --- Interpolation or Not?

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Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:33 pm
When? Was it at a point in time? What are some candidate points in time?

Where? Was it at a place on earth? What are some candidate places on earth?

How? Was it an actual piece of wood and actual Jewish humans hanging Christ on wood? If so, which humans?
Yes, all good questions. And all require significant speculation.
robert j wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:26 pm
As for more specific details, we are limited to the reminders Paul provided in his occasional letters.
I think Paul related his system to his congregations during his initial evangelizing visits, and that we are limited to the reminders he provided in his subsequent letters that he used to address specific issues that arose within each group.

I'll speculate as far as I am willing on your questions.

"When? Was it at a point in time?" ---

I am only willing to say 'within scriptural time.' Within the realm of Paul's source material.

"Where? Was it at a place on earth? What are some candidate places on earth?" ---

I think the scriptural "events" used by Paul are set on earth in the Jewish homelands such as the hanging on wood as redemption from the Jewish law and the salvific sufferings of the Isaian figure. From this I think the redemptive acts of Paul's Jesus Christ are best placed on earth within the realm of the Jewish homelands.

"How? Was it an actual piece of wood and actual Jewish humans hanging Christ on wood? ---

Paul presented his Jesus Christ as having been hung on wood as a redemptive act within Jewish tradition to exempt believers from the Jewish law. If asked by a follower, would Paul respond that it was an actual piece of wood and actual Jewish humans doing the deed? I suspect that he would.
Last edited by robert j on Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 --- Interpolation or Not?

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robert j wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:03 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:33 pm
When? Was it at a point in time? What are some candidate points in time?

Where? Was it at a place on earth? What are some candidate places on earth?

How? Was it an actual piece of wood and actual Jewish humans hanging Christ on wood? If so, which humans?
Yes, all good questions. And all require significant speculation.
robert j wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:26 pm
As for more specific details, we are limited to the reminders Paul provided in his occasional letters.
I think Paul related his system to his congregations during his initial evangelizing visits, and that we are limited to the reminders he provided in his subsequent letters that he used to address specific issues that arose within each group.

I'll speculate as far as I am willing on your questions.

"When? Was it at a point in time?" ---

I am only willing to say 'within scriptural time.' Within the realm of Paul's source material.

"Where? Was it at a place on earth? What are some candidate places on earth?" ---

I think the scriptural "events" used by Paul are set on earth in the Jewish homelands such as the hanging on a wood as redemption from the Jewish law and the salvific sufferings of the Isaian figure. From this I think the redemptive acts of Paul's Jesus Christ are best placed on earth within the realm of the Jewish homelands.

"How? Was it an actual piece of wood and actual Jewish humans hanging Christ on wood? ---

Paul presented his Jesus Christ as having been hung on wood as an redemptive act within Jewish tradition to exempt believers from the Jewish law. If asked by a follower, would Paul respond that it was an actual piece of wood and actual Jewish humans doing the deed? I suspect that he would.
Thanks! That's what I was wondering. :thumbup:
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 --- Interpolation or Not?

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robert j wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:44 am
For you became imitators, brothers, of the churches of God in Judea being in Christ Jesus. For the same as them, you also suffered from your own countrymen as they also did from the Jews, who having killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and having driven us out, and not pleasing God, are also set against all men, hindering us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, so as always to fill up their sins. Now the wrath has come upon them to the utmost. (1 Thessalonians 2:14-16)

… the Jews, who having killed … the Lord Jesus

For those accepting some version of the NT Gospel stories, not much problem here.
Except for the bits where a Roman prefect decrees his death and Roman soldiers crucify him as rex iudaeorum, I suppose.
Nowhere else did Paul write that the Jews had killed Jesus in such an explicit manner. However, I think that concept is inherent in Paul’s system constructed from the Jewish scriptures.

Paul presented his Jesus Christ as having “died for our sins according to the scriptures”. I think Paul’s Christ was “hung on wood” (Galatians 3:13) --- as derived from Deuteronomy 21:23 and 27:26 --- as a redemptive act in a Jewish tradition to set aside the Jewish law.

And Paul’s Jesus Christ was delivered-over unto death for our sins as derived from Isaiah 53 (especially verses 4-8), and then resurrected (Isaiah 53:10-12). I have elaborated on these concepts in relation to Paul in greater detail in numerous posts on this forum.

In Paul, it was ancient Jews that killed his Jesus Christ within the realm of his source material --- the Jewish scriptures.
And yet Paul affirms that "the archons of the present age" killed the "Lord of glory." (1 Cor 2:8). Should we suppose that Paul believed that the Jews/the Judaeans, whether "ancient" or contemporary, were the rulers of the present age?
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 --- Interpolation or Not?

Post by robert j »

Irish1975 wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:32 am
robert j wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:44 am
Paul presented his Jesus Christ as having “died for our sins according to the scriptures”. I think Paul’s Christ was “hung on wood” (Galatians 3:13) --- as derived from Deuteronomy 21:23 and 27:26 --- as a redemptive act in a Jewish tradition to set aside the Jewish law.

And Paul’s Jesus Christ was delivered-over unto death for our sins as derived from Isaiah 53 (especially verses 4-8), and then resurrected (Isaiah 53:10-12). I have elaborated on these concepts in relation to Paul in greater detail in numerous posts on this forum.

In Paul, it was ancient Jews that killed his Jesus Christ within the realm of his source material --- the Jewish scriptures.
And yet Paul affirms that "the archons of the present age" killed the "Lord of glory." (1 Cor 2:8).
OK. What do you think Paul intended with this verse? (note: ”the archons of this age” is a better translation.)
Last edited by robert j on Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 --- Interpolation or Not?

Post by robert j »

Irish1975 wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:32 am
robert j wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:44 am
Paul presented his Jesus Christ as having “died for our sins according to the scriptures”. I think Paul’s Christ was “hung on wood” (Galatians 3:13) --- as derived from Deuteronomy 21:23 and 27:26 --- as a redemptive act in a Jewish tradition to set aside the Jewish law.

And Paul’s Jesus Christ was delivered-over unto death for our sins as derived from Isaiah 53 (especially verses 4-8), and then resurrected (Isaiah 53:10-12). I have elaborated on these concepts in relation to Paul in greater detail in numerous posts on this forum.

In Paul, it was ancient Jews that killed his Jesus Christ within the realm of his source material --- the Jewish scriptures.
And yet Paul affirms that "the archons of the present age" killed the "Lord of glory." (1 Cor 2:8). Should we suppose that Paul believed that the Jews/the Judaeans, whether "ancient" or contemporary, were the rulers of the present age?
GakuseiDon provided a reasonable solution to this verse in another thread --- a solution based on the Jewish scriptures as Paul's source material. Now whether in a literal reading of Psalm 2 here the "archons" may be foreign rulers or invaders, if Paul used this as his source material he may have spun it differently as he so often did. Regardless, the parallels seem quite significant and the setting is in the Jewish scriptures and in the Jewish homelands.

Highlighting and addition of the Greek terms mine ----
GakuseiDon wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:56 pm
There is a source that Paul may have used: the Hebrew Scriptures. No-one doubts that Paul and the early Christians looked to the Old Testament to 'find' information about the Messiah. Does it say anything that might help us understand Paul?

First, let's recap what Paul is saying in 1 Cor. 2:

1. The rulers of this age did not know that Christ was being sent to be crucified
2. If they had known it, e.g. if they had been wise enough, they wouldn't have crucified Christ
3. Now that they have crucified Christ, they are perishing

Is there anything in the Old Testament where Paul might have seen such an event 'predicted'? Yes there is: Psalm 2. Psalm 2 refers to the Messiah and what will happen when he comes. I've reproduced this short Psalm below (KJV). I've bolded key words, though it is worth reading the whole Psalm to recognise the echoes in the unhighlighted passages that are undoubtedly reflected in the later New Testament:
  • Psalm 2:

    2.1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
    2.2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers (ἀρχοντες) take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed [Messiah], saying,
    2.3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
    2.4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision."
    2.5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
    2.6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
    2.7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
    2.8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
    2.9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."
    2.10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings
    : be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
    2.11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
    2.12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
Here we see the 'prediction' laid out: the kings of the earth and the rulers will work together against God and His Messiah. But they should 'be wise' and 'kiss the Son'. If they don't, the kings and rulers will 'perish from the way'.

Obviously, from Paul's perspective, the kings and rulers did not 'kiss the Son'. They crucified Christ, and so Paul expects them to perish.

If Paul understood Psalm 2 as a prophecy about the Messiah, then he would have assumed that Christ was crucified as a conspiracy at the end of this age by the kings and rulers of the earth. I doubt that Paul would have put much thought into this, like wondering 'Is it fair to include Jewish rulers or Roman rulers like Pilate into this?' Simply: the Hebrew Scriptures said it was rulers as a collective group, and that was good enough for him.

Again, compare the passage in 1 Cor 2 to the 'prediction' in Psalm 2 above:
  • 1 Cor 2:
    6. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the rulers (ἀρχόντων) of this age, that come to nought:
    7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the age unto our glory:
    8. Which none of the rulers of this age knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
The sense of it does match pretty well. And the Old Testament is an obvious suspect as a source about the Messiah.
Last edited by robert j on Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 --- Interpolation or Not?

Post by Irish1975 »

robert j wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:20 am
Irish1975 wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:32 am
robert j wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:44 am
Paul presented his Jesus Christ as having “died for our sins according to the scriptures”. I think Paul’s Christ was “hung on wood” (Galatians 3:13) --- as derived from Deuteronomy 21:23 and 27:26 --- as a redemptive act in a Jewish tradition to set aside the Jewish law.

And Paul’s Jesus Christ was delivered-over unto death for our sins as derived from Isaiah 53 (especially verses 4-8), and then resurrected (Isaiah 53:10-12). I have elaborated on these concepts in relation to Paul in greater detail in numerous posts on this forum.

In Paul, it was ancient Jews that killed his Jesus Christ within the realm of his source material --- the Jewish scriptures.
And yet Paul affirms that "the archons of the present age" killed the "Lord of glory." (1 Cor 2:8).
OK. What do you think Paul intended with this verse? (note: ”the archons of this age” is a better translation.)
Irish1975 wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:32 am Should we suppose that Paul believed that the Jews/the Judaeans, whether "ancient" or contemporary, were the rulers of the present age?
Is that the only option?
I don't have a definite position on who or what the archons are in 1 Cor 2:8.

Regardless, I'm finding it hard to entertain the view that one and the same Paul attributed the killing to parties he describes as both (a) the Jews/the Judaeans and (b) the archons of this age; it seems to require us to believe that (a) and (b) are one and the same in Paul's mind. Both phrases are ambiguous and can be read variously, but the burden is on the one proposing the Pauline authenticity of 1 Th 2:15 to reconcile them.
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 --- Interpolation or Not?

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robert j wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:37 pmGakuseiDon provided a reasonable solution to this verse in another thread --- a solution based on the Jewish scriptures as Paul's source material.
Thanks, though I wouldn't give it as strong a claim as a "reasonable solution". But for those who believe that a lot of early Christian ideas were extracted from the Old Testament, it seems an obvious source to look for what Paul might have meant there. I don't understand why mythicists like Dr Carrier and Doherty -- who do push the idea that early Christians developed their stories from the OT -- don't appear to have looked to the OT for the source of Paul's claim.

If Paul is using Psalm 2, then he seemed to believe that there was a conspiracy of kings and leaders to kill Christ, and that provides part of the background for how to see his other writings. I think that it does match what is in 1 Thess 2:

For you became imitators, brothers, of the churches of God in Judea being in Christ Jesus. For the same as them, you also suffered from your own countrymen as they also did from the Jews, who having killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and having driven us out, and not pleasing God, are also set against all men, hindering us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, so as always to fill up their sins. Now the wrath has come upon them to the utmost. (1 Thessalonians 2:14-16)

The kings and leaders were generally the ones that killed the prophets according to the OT, so it parallels the idea there. But "wrath has come upon them to the utmost" doesn't fit my proposal, since it seems to refer to the Jewish war. Perhaps just that part is an interpolation, but once one starts declaring parts that don't match "interpolations" for no other reason than to get a passage to fit, it shows a weakness in the theory.
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 --- Interpolation or Not?

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Irish1975 wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:02 pm
robert j wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:20 am
Irish1975 wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:32 am
robert j wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:44 am
Paul presented his Jesus Christ as having “died for our sins according to the scriptures”. I think Paul’s Christ was “hung on wood” (Galatians 3:13) --- as derived from Deuteronomy 21:23 and 27:26 --- as a redemptive act in a Jewish tradition to set aside the Jewish law.

And Paul’s Jesus Christ was delivered-over unto death for our sins as derived from Isaiah 53 (especially verses 4-8), and then resurrected (Isaiah 53:10-12). I have elaborated on these concepts in relation to Paul in greater detail in numerous posts on this forum.

In Paul, it was ancient Jews that killed his Jesus Christ within the realm of his source material --- the Jewish scriptures.
And yet Paul affirms that "the archons of the present age" killed the "Lord of glory." (1 Cor 2:8).
OK. What do you think Paul intended with this verse? (note: ”the archons of this age” is a better translation.)
Irish1975 wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:32 am Should we suppose that Paul believed that the Jews/the Judaeans, whether "ancient" or contemporary, were the rulers of the present age?
Is that the only option?
I don't have a definite position on who or what the archons are in 1 Cor 2:8.

Regardless, I'm finding it hard to entertain the view that one and the same Paul attributed the killing to parties he describes as both (a) the Jews/the Judaeans and (b) the archons of this age; it seems to require us to believe that (a) and (b) are one and the same in Paul's mind. Both phrases are ambiguous and can be read variously, but the burden is on the one proposing the Pauline authenticity of 1 Th 2:15 to reconcile them.
For the sake of completeness, another possibility is that it is the Corinthian reference which is the interpolation, either instead of or in addition to the Thessalonian one: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3842.

As another possibility, I believe that J. D. Crossan is one exegete (going from memory here) who sees the course of the gospel passion narrative as having been informed by the gentiles/nations (ἔθνη) and the rulers (ἄρχοντες) of Psalm 2.1-2 conspiring against the Messiah figure. If this notion already existed in Paul's day (and the Pauline epistles do seem to presuppose some kind of passion summary, at least), then it would be easy for Paul to write in the way he does in 1 Corinthians 2.6-8, just as modern Christians can fluctuate back and forth on who killed Jesus: the Jews or the Romans. Since, in the gospel narratives, the demurral of either party would have resulted in Jesus either going free or being acquitted, then it stands to reason that both parties killed him. And "both" cannot have done so unless "each" did so.
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