1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 --- Interpolation or Not?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:19 pmBut "wrath has come upon them to the utmost" doesn't fit my proposal, since it seems to refer to the Jewish war. Perhaps just that part is an interpolation, but once one starts declaring parts that don't match "interpolations" for no other reason than to get a passage to fit, it shows a weakness in the theory.
Well, only 2.15a is directly attested for the Marcionite text:

Jason BeDuhn, The First New Testament, page 306: Tertullian attests the reading ‘the Judeans killed their own prophets’ (occiderant Iudaei prophetas suos; interfecerunt … prophetas suos > Gk tous idious prophetas), which he claims is Marcion’s addition; but the reading is also found in Gk mss Dc, E*, K, L, Ψ, and many others, some versions and some patristic witnesses. Thus, the imaginable ideological motive for Marcion to make the change from ‘the prophets’ to ‘their (i.e., Jewish) prophets’ is beside the point, since the variant was already present in the textual tradition of Paul completely independently of Marcion (cf. Clabeaux, A Lost Edition of the Letters of Paul, 117 and n. 79). On the persecution of Christians in Judea mentioned here, cf. Gal 6.12. Tertullian omits ‘Jesus’ following ‘the Master.’ Harnack also cites the verse from Adam 5.12, but Marcion’s text is not involved here. Pearson, ‘1 Thessalonians 2:13-16: A Deutero-Pauline Interpolation,’ has made a case for interpolation in this passage, to explain several oddities in the grammar and syntax, as well as inconstistencies with Paul’s thought elsewhere (see also Eckart, ‘Der zweite echte Brief’). While the evidence of the Apostolikon does not confirm the entire passage as an interpolation, the most severe anomalies of the text are not attested for Marcion’s text by our sources, in particular v. 15b-16. The Prologue’s reference to the persecution of the Thessalonian Christians by their fellow countrymen comes from 2.14.

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 --- Interpolation or Not?

Post by John2 »

GDon has convinced me that 1 Cor. 2 is based on Ps. 2. What a great idea! And I agree with what he says regarding the parallel of OT kings and leaders being "generally the ones that killed the prophets." But even though I hadn't made the connection between 1 Cor. 2 and Ps. 2 before, I haven't had any issues with 1 Thess. 2:14-16 being genuine. Paul says the same kind of stuff elsewhere, like in Rom. 15:31:
Pray that I may be kept safe from the unbelievers in Judea ...
And Gal. 1:22:
I was personally unknown, however, to the churches of Judea that are in Christ.
Cf. 1 Thess. 2:14:
For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Judea that are in Christ Jesus. You suffered from your own countrymen the very things they suffered from the Jews ...
Regarding the issue of "wrath" in 1 Thess. 2:16, it seems like it should follow that if 1 Cor. 2 is based on Ps. 2, and if 1 Cor. 2 is thus in sync with 1 Thess. 2, then perhaps the wrath in 1 Thess. 2:16 has something to do with the wrath in Ps. 2:12. In that light, maybe the wrath in 1 Thess. 2:16 doesn't have anything to do with the 66-70 CE war and is just following Ps. 2:12. The rulers didn't "kiss the son" so God's wrath was "quickly kindled" against them.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Cf. 1 Thess. 2:16:
As a result, they continue to heap up their sins to full capacity; the utmost wrath has come upon them.
And how is the wrath in 1 Thess. 2:16 any different from the wrath that "is being revealed" in Rom. 1:18-19? If the latter isn't referring to the 66-70 CE war, then why is the former?
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by John2 »

I see that Marcus writes:
Developing hints already present in the original psalm, Jewish exegesis sometimes portrays this opposition as one that transcends the realm of the merely human. The mention of Belial in 4QFlor 2:2, for example, suggests that the citation of Ps. 2:1-2 in 4QFlor 1:18-19 is understood as a reference to the demonic power that stands behind the hostile nations. The rabbinic interpretation of these verses as referring to the wars of Gog and Magog also points to the opposition's superhuman dimension.

This demonic interpretation of Ps. 2:1-2 continues in several New Testament passages. The seer of the Apocalypse describes the forces arrayed against Christ and his followers in the final eschatological war as "the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies (Rev. 19:19). The phrase, "the kings of the earth" is taken from Ps. 2:2 ... The same conception of a supernatural opposition to Jesus is probably implied by the phrase "the rulers of this age" in 1 Cor. 2:6, 8; this locution, too, seems to be at least partially dependent on Psalm 2.

https://books.google.com/books?id=yCV6I ... 02&f=false
This way we can have our cake and eat it too. Since others interpret Ps. 2 as referring to demonic rulers acting through humans, then the same thing could be going on in Paul, and thus 1 Cor. 2 and 1 Thess. 2:14-16 would not be in contradiction.
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 --- Interpolation or Not?

Post by GakuseiDon »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:31 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:19 pmBut "wrath has come upon them to the utmost" doesn't fit my proposal, since it seems to refer to the Jewish war. Perhaps just that part is an interpolation, but once one starts declaring parts that don't match "interpolations" for no other reason than to get a passage to fit, it shows a weakness in the theory.
Well, only 2.15a is directly attested for the Marcionite text:
Thanks Ben, that interesting.
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by arnoldo »

FWIW, "And the Romans will come, and will take away both our place and nation." also seems to be referring to the Jewish War.
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by GakuseiDon »

John2 wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:22 pmThis way we can have our cake and eat it too. Since others interpret Ps. 2 as referring to demonic rulers acting through humans, then the same thing could be going on in Paul, and thus 1 Cor. 2 and 1 Thess. 2:14-16 would not be in contradiction.
I'm not so sure. If a cosmically important person like Jesus had been killed by being stepped on by a camel, the rationale would be that the camel had been guided by demonic forces. But would it make sense to claim that Jesus had been killed by being stepped on by demonic forces?

1 Cor 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

That doesn't sound like that the princes of this world were behind the crucifixion. It sounds like they were actively involved. But maybe I'm reading too much into the English translation.

I go back to the Ascension of Isaiah, where Satan is stretching out his hand to get "they" to crucify Jesus, suggesting from context that the influence by Satan was from a distance. But also it has the demon Beliar come to earth as Nero, to persecute the apostles directly. Emperors and kings being thought to be gods were common in those days. I wonder if the "princes of this world" were earthly kings whom themselves were thought to be supernatural creatures.

The problem is that Paul rarely writes about Satan and demons. He also rarely refers to concrete times, places and people on earth. So it is difficult to understand what is in his mind.
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by Ben C. Smith »

GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:24 am
John2 wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:22 pmThis way we can have our cake and eat it too. Since others interpret Ps. 2 as referring to demonic rulers acting through humans, then the same thing could be going on in Paul, and thus 1 Cor. 2 and 1 Thess. 2:14-16 would not be in contradiction.
I'm not so sure. If a cosmically important person like Jesus had been killed by being stepped on by a camel, the rationale would be that the camel had been guided by demonic forces. But would it make sense to claim that Jesus had been killed by being stepped on by demonic forces?

1 Cor 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

That doesn't sound like that the princes of this world were behind the crucifixion. It sounds like they were actively involved. But maybe I'm reading too much into the English translation.
There are spiritual entities who seem to receive unmitigated credit for human words and deeds and for other life circumstances in the New Testament:

Mark 8.33: 33 But turning around and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter, and said, "Get behind Me, Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."

Notice that Jesus himself never even acknowledges Peter qua Peter; to hear Jesus say it, one might think that he was back in the wilderness being tempted by the devil. This credit even goes in reverse, when it is God getting the credit for acting through humans:

Romans 16.20: 20 And the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

Your feet must belong to the Roman believers, yet it is God doing the crushing. Or:

1 Corinthians 5.5: 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Refer also to 1 Timothy 1.20. I do not think we ought to imagine Paul personally marching this poor person to stand before the very throne of Satan; rather, I think Paul expects this person to start suffering like Job did. Or:

1 Thessalonians 2.17-18: 17 But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short while — in person, not in spirit — were all the more eager with great desire to see your face. 18 For we wanted to come to you — I, Paul, more than once — and yet Satan hindered us.

Members of my family, including my own parents, still say things like this. They are not claiming to have been granted an unwelcome and impromptu audience with the Prince of Darkness himself; rather, they are claiming that certain eventualities of life owe themselves to Satan.

Revelation 2.10: 10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

I bet there will be jailers and local officials involved, too; yet it is the devil who is really casting believers into prison.

In all of these, if we did not know who Satan or the devil was, would we not be imagining somebody personally rebuking Jesus, for example, or standing in Paul's way, or casting the faithful into prison?
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by Giuseppe »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:31 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:24 am
John2 wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:22 pmThis way we can have our cake and eat it too. Since others interpret Ps. 2 as referring to demonic rulers acting through humans, then the same thing could be going on in Paul, and thus 1 Cor. 2 and 1 Thess. 2:14-16 would not be in contradiction.
I'm not so sure. If a cosmically important person like Jesus had been killed by being stepped on by a camel, the rationale would be that the camel had been guided by demonic forces. But would it make sense to claim that Jesus had been killed by being stepped on by demonic forces?

1 Cor 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

That doesn't sound like that the princes of this world were behind the crucifixion. It sounds like they were actively involved. But maybe I'm reading too much into the English translation.
There are spiritual entities who seem to receive unmitigated credit for human words and deeds and for other life circumstances in the New Testament:

Mark 8.33: 33 But turning around and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter, and said, "Get behind Me, Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."

Notice that Jesus himself never even acknowledges Peter qua Peter; to hear Jesus say it, one might think that he was back in the wilderness being tempted by the devil. This credit even goes in reverse, when it is God getting the credit for acting through humans:

Romans 16.20: 20 And the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

Your feet must belong to the Roman believers, yet it is God doing the crushing. Or:

1 Corinthians 5.5: 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Refer also to 1 Timothy 1.20. I do not think we ought to imagine Paul personally marching this poor person to stand before the very throne of Satan; rather, I think Paul expects this person to start suffering like Job did. Or:

1 Thessalonians 2.17-18: 17 But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short while — in person, not in spirit — were all the more eager with great desire to see your face. 18 For we wanted to come to you — I, Paul, more than once — and yet Satan hindered us.

Members of my family, including my own parents, still say things like this. They are not claiming to have been granted an unwelcome and impromptu audience with the Prince of Darkness himself; rather, they are claiming that certain eventualities of life owe themselves to Satan.

Revelation 2.10: 10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

I bet there will be jailers and local officials involved, too; yet it is the devil who is really casting believers into prison.

In all of these, if we did not know who Satan or the devil was, would we not be imagining somebody personally rebuking Jesus, for example, or standing in Paul's way, or casting the faithful into prison?
In all these cases we have both the reference to a mythological entity and the reference to a human (historical) entity.

In 1 Cor 2:6-8 we have the reference to only mythological entities (the archons + “the Lord of the Glory”).

So the list given by Ben can only add further weight to the argument from Silence applied on 1 Cor 2:6-8 (where the problem, I repeat it, is not who are the Archons of this Age, but: why are the Romans not named at all?). Why 1 Cor 2:6-8 is the only instance, in all Paul, where we can't realize who is historical and who is mythological, differently from all the other cases?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:14 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:31 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:24 am
John2 wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:22 pmThis way we can have our cake and eat it too. Since others interpret Ps. 2 as referring to demonic rulers acting through humans, then the same thing could be going on in Paul, and thus 1 Cor. 2 and 1 Thess. 2:14-16 would not be in contradiction.
I'm not so sure. If a cosmically important person like Jesus had been killed by being stepped on by a camel, the rationale would be that the camel had been guided by demonic forces. But would it make sense to claim that Jesus had been killed by being stepped on by demonic forces?

1 Cor 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

That doesn't sound like that the princes of this world were behind the crucifixion. It sounds like they were actively involved. But maybe I'm reading too much into the English translation.
There are spiritual entities who seem to receive unmitigated credit for human words and deeds and for other life circumstances in the New Testament:

Mark 8.33: 33 But turning around and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter, and said, "Get behind Me, Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."

Notice that Jesus himself never even acknowledges Peter qua Peter; to hear Jesus say it, one might think that he was back in the wilderness being tempted by the devil. This credit even goes in reverse, when it is God getting the credit for acting through humans:

Romans 16.20: 20 And the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

Your feet must belong to the Roman believers, yet it is God doing the crushing. Or:

1 Corinthians 5.5: 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Refer also to 1 Timothy 1.20. I do not think we ought to imagine Paul personally marching this poor person to stand before the very throne of Satan; rather, I think Paul expects this person to start suffering like Job did. Or:

1 Thessalonians 2.17-18: 17 But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short while — in person, not in spirit — were all the more eager with great desire to see your face. 18 For we wanted to come to you — I, Paul, more than once — and yet Satan hindered us.

Members of my family, including my own parents, still say things like this. They are not claiming to have been granted an unwelcome and impromptu audience with the Prince of Darkness himself; rather, they are claiming that certain eventualities of life owe themselves to Satan.

Revelation 2.10: 10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

I bet there will be jailers and local officials involved, too; yet it is the devil who is really casting believers into prison.

In all of these, if we did not know who Satan or the devil was, would we not be imagining somebody personally rebuking Jesus, for example, or standing in Paul's way, or casting the faithful into prison?
In all these cases we have both the reference to a mythological entity and the reference to a human (historical) entity.
That is simply not true. You have misread about half of them if you think this.
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Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by Giuseppe »

Let us see. In red I put the human characters, in blue the mythological character:

Mark 8.33: 33
But turning around and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter, and said, "Get behind Me, Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."


Romans 16.20:
20 And the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

1 Corinthians 5.5: 5
I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 2.17-18: 17
But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short while — in person, not in spirit — were all the more eager with great desire to see your face. 18 For we wanted to come to you — I, Paul, more than once — and yet Satan hindered us.

Revelation 2.10:
10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Now let us see 1 Cor 2:8:
...None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
What informs us that “the Lord of glory” is a historical character, here, differently from the other verses (more precisely, what I have put in red) where we already detect mythological entities (in blue) ?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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