1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:52 am Can someone confute the my point about 1 Thess 2:14-16 as interpolation?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4838&start=10#p95180
Yes. But no: because I am so done with the likes of you and Ethan. Not just on this thread, but altogether. Proceed in ignorance.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by Giuseppe »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:55 am This is nonsense. Just as Satan can hinder Paul or the devil can imprison Christians, so can the spirits crucify a human Jesus.
but the problem is that in 1 Cor 2:8 there is no clue at all that Jesus is human (as in the claim: "Satan hindered Paul"). It is a significant Silence.
In the your list above, there are no doubts about the concrete historicity of the people hindered by Satan. The historicity of these people "historicizes" the mentioned Satan. In 1 Cor 2:8 there is no appeal to a such possibility.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
robert j
Posts: 1007
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:01 pm

Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by robert j »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:14 am
In 1 Cor 2:6-8 we have the reference to only mythological entities (the archons + “the Lord of the Glory”).

... 1 Cor 2:6-8 (where the problem, I repeat it, is not who are the Archons of this Age, but ...
Your very narrow interpretation of the Greek term archons is tiresome. And like some others, I'm just not interested in engaging with you here, nor do I have have the time.
robert j
Posts: 1007
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:01 pm

Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 --- Interpolation or Not?

Post by robert j »

robert j wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:44 am
… the Jews, who having killed … the Lord Jesus

Nowhere else did Paul write that the Jews had killed Jesus in such an explicit manner. However, I think that concept is inherent in Paul’s system constructed from the Jewish scriptures.

Paul presented his Jesus Christ as having “died for our sins according to the scriptures”. I think Paul’s Christ was “hung on wood” (Galatians 3:13) --- as derived from Deuteronomy 21:23 and 27:26 --- as a redemptive act in a Jewish tradition to set aside the Jewish law.

And Paul’s Jesus Christ was delivered-over unto death for our sins as derived from Isaiah 53 (especially verses 4-8), and then resurrected (Isaiah 53:10-12). I have elaborated on these concepts in relation to Paul in greater detail in numerous posts on this forum.

In Paul, it was ancient Jews that killed his Jesus Christ within the realm of his source material --- the Jewish scriptures.

... Did Paul write the passage? I think it’s possible.
The line highlighted above seems to have elicited the most push-back.

Now, I think Paul clearly derived much of his system from creative readings of the Jewish scriptures, including the sufferings, death and resurrection of his Jesus Christ. And that, as result, I think the most likely location of the scriptural “events” of Paul’s Jesus Christ would have been the Jewish homelands.

However --- in light of further thoughts about possible interrelationships between 1 Corinthians 2:6-8, Psalm 2, Isaiah 53, and more --- I want to investigate more deeply whom Paul may have intended as responsible for hanging his Jesus Christ on wood. Was it just ancient Jews in the scriptures? Pagan Canaanites? Foreign invaders or rulers? Did Jews participate with these others? Were the humans influenced by heavenly/spiritual forces or deceivers? Some combination of these?

Is it even possible to reasonably derive the culprits from Paul’s occasional letters?

I like the comparison Ben made with the NT stories where there was blame to-go-around to more than one culprit --- would Paul’s story be less complex?
Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:26 pm ... just as modern Christians can fluctuate back and forth on who killed Jesus: the Jews or the Romans. Since, in the gospel narratives, the demurral of either party would have resulted in Jesus either going free or being acquitted, then it stands to reason that both parties killed him. And "both" cannot have done so unless "each" did so.
In just about any case, in terms of 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16, with the setting of Paul’s source material from the Jewish scriptures, for the hyperbole-prone Paul to lay the blame for killing both the prophets and Jesus Christ on the Jews in an angry rant to provide some encouragement to his followers --- who were apparently being hassled by local ethnic-Jews or fully-converted Macedonians --- I still think is possible.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by John2 »

GDon wrote:
The problem is that Paul rarely writes about Satan and demons. He also rarely refers to concrete times, places and people on earth. So it is difficult to understand what is in his mind.
My takeaway from all this is that if "everyone else" (4QFlorilegium, Revelation, rabbinic writings, Origen) interpreted Ps. 2 to mean demonic forces and earthly humans, and the psalm itself is about earthly humans (though it may imply demonic forces as well), why should we think that Paul's understanding of Ps. 2 was any different?

In fact, I'm not even convinced that he is talking about demons in 1 Cor. 2. But even if he is, I still think 1 Thess. 2:14-16 could be genuine, and given these other interpretations of Ps. 2 (4QFlor, etc.), a demonic interpretation of 1 Cor. 2 doesn't contradict it.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
User avatar
GakuseiDon
Posts: 2295
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:10 pm

Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by GakuseiDon »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:31 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:24 amThat doesn't sound like that the princes of this world were behind the crucifixion. It sounds like they were actively involved. But maybe I'm reading too much into the English translation.
There are spiritual entities who seem to receive unmitigated credit for human words and deeds and for other life circumstances in the New Testament:
...
In all of these, if we did not know who Satan or the devil was, would we not be imagining somebody personally rebuking Jesus, for example, or standing in Paul's way, or casting the faithful into prison?
Ben, it is very unfair of you to use logic and valid counter-examples against my weak arguments! :D Yes, I can't really mount an argument beyond my own feelings on the matter: that the specification of "crucifixion" implies more than just influencing actors to act, but a more direct involvement. But I can't really prove it. And of course if Paul had Pilate and Herod in mind, he wouldn't have thought that they personally crucified Christ (e.g. Pilate raising the crucifixion bar and Herod hammering the nails) so in any earthly scenario the actual crucifixion was done via orders to underlings.
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by Ben C. Smith »

GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:53 pmBen, it is very unfair of you to use logic and valid counter-examples against my weak arguments! :D Yes, I can't really mount an argument beyond my own feelings on the matter: that the specification of "crucifixion" implies more than just influencing actors to act, but a more direct involvement. But I can't really prove it. And of course if Paul had Pilate and Herod in mind, he wouldn't have thought that they personally crucified Christ (e.g. Pilate raising the crucifixion bar and Herod hammering the nails) so in any earthly scenario the actual crucifixion was done via orders to underlings.
That is a very good point. Agency can be indirect. :cheers:
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

Post by Giuseppe »

GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:53 pm Ben, it is very unfair of you to use logic and valid counter-examples against my weak arguments! :D Yes, I can't really mount an argument beyond my own feelings on the matter: that the specification of "crucifixion" implies more than just influencing actors to act, but a more direct involvement. But I can't really prove it. And of course if Paul had Pilate and Herod in mind, he wouldn't have thought that they personally crucified Christ (e.g. Pilate raising the crucifixion bar and Herod hammering the nails) so in any earthly scenario the actual crucifixion was done via orders to underlings.
If it is for that reason, then also under a celestial scenario, the actual crucifixion was done via orders to demons of inferior rank (as also the Ascension of Isaiah seems to assume: I mean, the distinction between the "Archon of this world" and the demons who carried the execution).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
User avatar
Irish1975
Posts: 1057
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:01 am

Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 --- Interpolation or Not?

Post by Irish1975 »

robert j wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:04 pm
Now, I think Paul clearly derived much of his system from creative readings of the Jewish scriptures, including the sufferings, death and resurrection of his Jesus Christ. And that, as result, I think the most likely location of the scriptural “events” of Paul’s Jesus Christ would have been the Jewish homelands.
If you're putting scare quotes around the word "event," which "happens" on account of a "creative reading of scripture," maybe what you're talking about is fiction, not history, and maybe suggesting a "location" for this "event" in historical time and geographical space is hopelessly muddled?
robert j
Posts: 1007
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:01 pm

Re: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 --- Interpolation or Not?

Post by robert j »

Irish1975 wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:59 pm
robert j wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:04 pm
Now, I think Paul clearly derived much of his system from creative readings of the Jewish scriptures, including the sufferings, death and resurrection of his Jesus Christ. And that, as result, I think the most likely location of the scriptural “events” of Paul’s Jesus Christ would have been the Jewish homelands.
If you're putting scare quotes around the word "event," which "happens" on account of a "creative reading of scripture," maybe what you're talking about is fiction, not history, and maybe suggesting a "location" for this "event" in historical time and geographical space is hopelessly muddled?
Bingo.

I don’t think that I have (at least intentionally) indicated that I thought the “events” of Paul’s Jesus Christ in the Jewish scriptures actually happened, that they were historical.

I think Paul derived the “events” of his Jesus Christ from his creative allegorical and typological readings of the Jewish scriptures in order to reveal hidden meanings, a long-secret mystery.

Such treatments of the scriptures were not new or unique to Paul within the wide realm of Jewish thought of the times. For many in those days, the sacred scriptures were living documents --- a continuing source of new insights and guidance for the here and now.

Philo applied allegorical and typological readings of the Jewish scriptures. And Philo wrote about a group of Alexandrian Jews --- he called the Therapeutae --- that spent many hours each day studying the Jewish scriptures for hidden meanings.

The sectarian authors of the Dead Sea Scroll Pesharim typically ignored the historical and literary context in the scriptural passages, and instead, applied the ancient scriptural messages to the events and concerns in their own contemporary community.

In his commentary on Psalm 1, Origen cites a 'Hebrew' scholar as saying that the Jewish scriptures are like a large house with very many rooms. Outside each door lies a key --- but not the right key. The great and difficult task is to find the right keys that will open the doors.

Now, if asked by one of his followers, I think Paul would have said that the “events” of his Jesus Christ that he found in the Jewish Scriptures actually did happen. He would say that the events were hidden, they were a mystery that had to be unraveled and revealed by inspired readings and new interpretations. It just so happens, Paul would have continued, God revealed to me the keys to unraveling these mysteries.

My interest now in this regard is --- using Paul’s occasional letters, our limited record of his creative exegesis --- to try and determine if it is possible to more clearly determine whom Paul may have intended as responsible for hanging his Jesus Christ on wood. That effort may very well be hopeless in light of the limited extant evidence --- but I think the question deserves investigation.
Post Reply