The Pastorals

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The Pastorals

Post by Ben C. Smith »

There has been much talk on this forum about the possibility that various figures (like Jesus of Ananus) contributed to the overall picture of Jesus (whether he existed as such or not). Could it be that, rather than Jesus being the Teacher of Righteousness in a one-to-one way, the figure of the Teacher was just another one of those contributing to the overall picture of Jesus?
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John2
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Re: The Pastorals

Post by John2 »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:09 pm There has been much talk on this forum about the possibility that various figures (like Jesus of Ananus) contributed to the overall picture of Jesus (whether he existed as such or not). Could it be that, rather than Jesus being the Teacher of Righteousness in a one-to-one way, the figure of the Teacher was just another one of those contributing to the overall picture of Jesus?
Well, I still need to see how the other details about the Teacher sync up with Jesus, because I've never seriously considered Jesus as a candidate for being the Teacher before, and I foresee some potential issues (though I wasn't sure how the above stuff would pan out and it went over better than I expected). If the other details don't work then I will consider other possibilities for explaining why the Teacher and Jesus seem so similar.
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Re: The Pastorals

Post by John2 »

I've had this on the backburner, but the only thing I can think of that might rule out Jesus being the Teacher of Righteousness (not that I care one way or the other or think that it would be a big deal if he was) -since all fragments of the Damascus Document from Qumran that mention the Teacher are dateable to the Herodian era or later in the case of the two copies found in Egypt, and factoring in things like what Lonqvist and Lonqvist say in The Dead Sea Scrolls in Context regarding the Habakkuk Pesher ("The lower calibrated radiocarbon ages of the Community Rule (1QS) and Pesher Habakkuk (1QpHab) around the turn of the millennium and the Common Era, however, could even indicate a date towards the end of the Qumran settlement and the First Jewish Revolt")- is something in col. 4 of the Habakkuk Pesher, a tricky passage that Vermes translates this way:
... this concerns the House of Absalom and the members of its council who were dumb at the time of the chastisement of the Teacher of Righteousness and gave him no help against the Liar who flouted the Law in the midst of their whole [congregation].


(Lim discusses the trickiness of this passage here: https://books.google.com/books?id=nFEF6 ... ss&f=false)

I think the Liar strongly resembles Paul, but this passage seems to be saying that he had an encounter with the Teacher. And though that seems to rule out the Teacher being Jesus, after looking into it in another thread ("Did Paul Know Jesus?") I came away with impression that while it can't be proven, it's also not outside the realm of possibility and is actually quite plausible given Paul's Pharisaic and in my view Herodian background, since these two groups are said to have plotted to kill Jesus in Mk. 3:6:
Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.


So on that score I don't think we can rule out that the Teacher was Jesus. Another problem though is that it says that the Liar had "flouted the Law" at this time, and I gather from what Paul says in Gal. 1:13-14 that he was Torah observant when he persecuted the Church.
For you have heard of my former way of life in Judaism, how severely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers.
So, I think that part might rule out Jesus being the Teacher. However, given the dating of the Damascus Document fragments from Qumran and the two copies from Egypt that mention the Teacher and how well other details sync up, I think the Liar could be Paul and the Teacher James, or if not them then perhaps some other Fourth Philosophers (since I view Christianity as being a faction of the Fourth Philosophy).
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John2
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Re: The Pastorals

Post by John2 »

If we go by the argument that the Liar had chastised the Teacher (which Lim supports), it would be in keeping with what the Recognitions of Clement (which is commonly thought to have incorporated earlier Jewish Christian writings that include the passages below) says about Paul (called Saul).
1.70 -- Tumult Raised by Saul.

And when matters were at that point that they should come and be baptized, some one of our enemies, entering the temple with a few men, began to cry out, and to say, "What mean ye, O men of Israel? Why are you so easily hurried on? Why are ye led headlong by most miserable men, who are deceived by Simon, a magician?"

While he was thus speaking, and adding more to the same effect, and while James the bishop was refuting him, he began to excite the people and to raise a tumult, so that the people might not be able to hear what was said.

Therefore he began to drive all into confusion with shouting, and to undo what had been arranged with much labour, and at the same time to reproach the priests, and to enrage them with revilings and abuse, and, like a madman, to excite every one to murder, saying, "What do ye? Why do ye hesitate? Oh sluggish and inert, why do we not lay hands upon them, and pull all these fellows to pieces?"

When he had said this, he first, seizing a strong brand from the altar, set the example of smiting. Then others also, seeing him, were carried away with like readiness. Then ensued a tumult on either side, of the beating and the beaten. Much blood is shed; there is a confused flight, in the midst of which that enemy attacked James, and threw him headlong from the top of the steps; and supposing him to be dead, he cared not to inflict further violence upon him.

http://compassionatespirit.com/Books/Re ... Book-1.htm

That Saul had "entered the temple with a few men" and "began to excite the people" and "others also, seeing him, were carried away with like readiness" seems in keeping with what the Habakkuk Pesher calls "the House of Absalom and the members of its council who were dumb at the time of the chastisement of the Teacher of Righteousness and gave him no help against the Liar."

Another curious detail is that the Recognitions go on to place James' followers near where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found:
1.71 -- Flight to Jericho.

But our friends lifted him [James] up, for they were both more numerous and more powerful than the others; but, from their fear of God, they rather suffered themselves to be killed by an inferior force, than they would kill others.

But when the evening came the priests shut up the temple, and we returned to the house of James, and spent the night there in prayer. Then before daylight we went down to Jericho, to the number of 5000 men.
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Re: The Pastorals

Post by John2 »

What the Recognitions say about Saul attacking James and his followers (including priests) is in keeping with what Josephus says about a Herodian named Saul who is mentioned right after the James passage in Ant. 20.9.4:
Costobarus also, and Saulus, did themselves get together a multitude of wicked wretches, and this because they were of the royal family; and so they obtained favor among them, because of their kindred to Agrippa; but still they used violence with the people, and were very ready to plunder those that were weaker than themselves.
Cf. Rec. 1.70:
... one of our enemies entering the temple with a few men, began to cry out ... While he was thus speaking, and adding more to the same effect, and while James the bishop was refuting him, he began to excite the people and to raise a tumult, so that the people might not be able to hear what was said ... he began to drive all into confusion with shouting, and to undo what had been arranged with much labour, and at the same time to reproach the priests, and to enrage them with revilings and abuse, and, like a madman, to excite every one to murder ... he first, seizing a strong brand from the altar, set the example of smiting. Then others also, seeing him, were carried away with like readiness. Then ensued a tumult on either side, of the beating and the beaten. Much blood is shed; there is a confused flight, in the midst of which that enemy attacked James ...
And this fits with what Josephus and the Talmud say about this era.

Ant. 20.8.8:
And now arose a sedition between the high priests and the principal men of the multitude of Jerusalem; each of which got them a company of the boldest sort of men, and of those that loved innovations about them, and became leaders to them; and when they struggled together, they did it by casting reproachful words against one another, and by throwing stones also. And there was nobody to reprove them; but these disorders were done after a licentious manner in the city, as if it had no government over it. And such was the impudence and boldness that had seized on the high priests, that they had the hardiness to send their servants into the threshing-floors, to take away those tithes that were due to the priests, insomuch that it so fell out that the poorest sort of the priests died for want. To this degree did the violence of the seditious prevail over all right and justice.
Ant. 20.9.2:
... he [the high priest] also had servants who were very wicked, who joined themselves to the boldest sort of the people, and went to the thrashing-floors, and took away the tithes that belonged to the priests by violence, and did not refrain from beating such as would not give these tithes to them. So the other high priests acted in the like manner, as did those his servants, without any one being able to prohibit them ...
Pes. 57a:
... their servants strike the people with clubs, and otherwise act inappropriately.
And that some of James' followers are said to be priests fits with what Acts 6:7 says:
The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.
That the enemy Saul in Recognitions 1.70 (who "began ... to reproach the priests, and to enrage them with revilings and abuse and, like a madman, to excite everyone to murder" and used "a strong brand from the altar" to "set the example of smiting") is Paul and that he was a servant of the high priests (as per the Talmud) is clear from what follows in 1.71:
... that enemy had received a commission from Caiaphas, the chief priest, that he should arrest all who believed in Jesus, and should go to Damascus with his letters, and that there also employing the help of the unbelievers, he should make havoc among the faithful; and that he was hastening to Damascus chiefly on this account.
And even after his conversion Paul remained a hothead and verbally abused Cephas "to his face ... in front of them all" in Gal. 2:11-14:
When Cephas came to Antioch, however, I opposed him to his face, because he stood to be condemned. For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself, for fear of those in the circumcision group. The other Jews joined in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

When I saw that they were not walking in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all ...
And he continued to brag about his prowess in 1 Cor. 9:25-26:
Everyone who competes in the games trains with strict discipline. They do it for a crown that is perishable, but we do it for a crown that is imperishable. Therefore I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight like I am beating the air.
So I am inclined to take what the Recognitions say about Saul seriously and to see Josephus' Saul as Paul. Not only do these details fit, but how many Herodians named Saul who used violence against "those who were weaker than themselves" do you suppose there were during this time? Josephus mentions only one, and Christian writings mention only one.
Last edited by John2 on Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:34 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: The Pastorals

Post by John2 »

We might wonder then why Paul boasts of his own sufferings, like in 2 Cor. 11:23-25:
I have ... been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones ...


But Josephus says the violence went both ways in the passage above:
And now arose a sedition between the high priests and the principal men of the multitude of Jerusalem; each of which got them a company of the boldest sort of men, and of those that loved innovations about them, and became leaders to them; and when they struggled together, they did it by casting reproachful words against one another, and by throwing stones also.
Last edited by John2 on Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Pastorals

Post by John2 »

So for me the last piece of the puzzle is what the Habakkuk Pesher says above about "the Liar who flouted the Law" (and bearing in mind that the context of this confrontation between the Liar and the Teacher is the New Covenant in a place called Damascus):
... this concerns the House of Absalom and the members of its council who were dumb at the time of the chastisement of the Teacher of Righteousness and gave him no help against the Liar ...
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Re: The Pastorals

Post by John2 »

The big question for me is did Paul continue to be violent after his conversion, as Josephus' account of Saul seems to indicate? He certainly remained a bully, to judge from his letters. I mean, just look at the kind of things he said to and about Jewish Christians.

Gal. 2:4-5:
Some false brothers had come in under false pretenses to spy on our freedom in Christ Jesus, in order to enslave us. We did not give in to them for a moment ...
Gal. 2:6:
But as for the highly esteemed, whatever they were makes no difference to me ... those men added nothing to my message.


Gal. 2:11:
When Cephas came to Antioch, however, I opposed him to his face, because he stood to be condemned.
Gal. 5:1:
… do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery.
Gal. 5:12:
As for those who are agitating you, I wish they would proceed to emasculate themselves!
2 Cor. 11:5:
I consider myself in no way inferior to those “super-apostles.”
2 Cor. 11:12-15:
I will keep on doing what I am doing, in order to undercut those who want an opportunity to be regarded as our equals in the things of which they boast. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their works.
2 Cor. 11:19-20:
... you gladly tolerate fools, since you are so wise. In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you ...
2 Cor. 11:21-23:
I can match what anyone else dares to boast about. Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I. Are they servants of Christ? I am speaking like I am out of my mind, but I am so much more.
He sounds like a huge egotistical jerk to me, at the very least. And it's curious that Acts (which is clearly pro-Paul and in my view used Josephus) is silent about the exact time Josephus says James was kiled and Saul and company used violence against "those who were weaker than themselves."

But if we factor in Josephus' Saul and the Habakkuk Pesher (bearing in mind again that the context is the New Covenant in a place caled Damascus), perhaps it would explain Acts' silence.

1QpHab col. 10:
"Woe to him who builds a city with blood and founds a town upon falsehood! Behold, is it not from the Lord of Hosts that the peoples shall labour for fire and the nations shall strive for naught?" (Hab. 2:12-13).

Interpreted, this concerns the Spouter of Lies who led many astray that he might build his city of vanity with blood and raise a congregation on deceit, causing many thereby to perform a service of vanity for the sake of its glory, and to be pregnant with [works] of deceit, that their labour might be for nothing and that they might be punished with fire who vilified and outraged the elect of God.
Last edited by John2 on Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Pastorals

Post by John2 »

And Paul and the Habakkuk Pesher cite the same verse to justify their respective positions.

Gal. 3:11:
Clearly no one who relies on the Law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith."
1QpHab. col. 7-8:
"[But the righteous shall live by his faith]" (Hab. 2:4).

Interpreted, this concerns all those who observe the Law in the House of Judah, whom God will save from the house of judgement because of their sufferings and because of their faith in the Teacher of Righteousness.
And the word translated as "sufferings" here (עָמָל) also has the sense of "works" (and is also used to describe the Suffering Servant in Is. 53:11):
After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
Definition: trouble, labor, toil

anguish (1), fruit of his labor (1), fruit of my labor (3), labor (16), mischief (9), misery (1), sorry (1), toil (3), toils (1), trouble (13), troublesome (1), unjust decisions (1), wickedness (2), work (1).

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5999.htm
Last edited by John2 on Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:38 am, edited 13 times in total.
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Re: The Pastorals

Post by John2 »

And listen to what James says in 3:1 in the midst of reproving the "foolish man" who taught "faith without works":
Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.
And teaching Torah observance and righteousness is exactly what Jesus says to do in Matthew.

5:6:
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness ...


5:10:
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness ...
5:19-20:
So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

And we can just keep going and going, like column 2 of the Habakkuk Pesher:
[Interpreted, this concerns] those who were unfaithful together with the Liar, in that they [did] not [listen to the word received by] the Teacher of Righteousness from the mouth of God. And it concerns the unfaithful of the New [Covenant] in that they have not believed in the Covenant of God [and have profaned] His holy Name.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
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