Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

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Bernard Muller
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Re: Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

Post by Bernard Muller »

To Stephan,
But what evidence is there that the gospel existed as a literary text independent of Jesus being worshipped as a god? It is like claiming that the Torah existed as a 'historical text' or a document 'preserving' the escape from Egypt. Nonsense.
First the gospels surely deified Jesus, relatively little for gMark, a lot more for gJohn.
In gMark, the disciples are never calling Jesus "Son of God"; and there is no worshiping as for a god.

Paul did mention at a times an earthly human Jesus (http://historical-jesus.sosblogs.com/Hi ... -b1-p8.htm) but never said he was worshiped while human. On the contrary, Rom 1:4 suggests he was revealed to be "Son of God" by not earlier than his alleged resurrection and Philippians 2:7-8 indicates his earthly life was way below the radar.

What do you call "the gospel"?

What is so blatantly counter-marcionite in Luke's gospel & Acts (which would put gLuke written late 2nd century)? I always wonder.

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

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First the gospels surely deified Jesus, relatively little for gMark, a lot more for gJohn
But the first question is whether Mark as we have it represents Mark as it was. Look at Philosophumena 7:18 and its version of the gospel of Mark:
When, therefore, Marcion or some one of his hounds barks against the Demiurge, and adduces reasons from a comparison of what is good and bad, we ought to say to them, that neither Paul the apostle nor Mark, he of the maimed finger, announced such (tenets). For none of these (doctrines) has been written in the Gospel according to Mark. But (the real author of the system) is Empedocles, son of Meto, a native of Agrigentum. And (Marcion) despoiled this (philosopher), and imagined that up to the present would pass undetected his transference, under the same expressions, of the arrangement of his entire heresy from Sicily into the evangelical narratives (of Mark). For bear with me, O Marcion: as you have instituted a comparison of what is good and evil, I also to-day will institute a comparison following up your own tenets, as you suppose them to be. You affirm that the Demiurge of the world is evil--why not hide your countenance in shame, (as thus) teaching to the Church the doctrines of Empedocles? You say that there is a good Deity who destroys the works of the Demiurge: then do not you plainly preach to your pupils, as the good Deity, the Friendship of Empedocles. You forbid marriage, the procreation of children, (and) the abstaining from meats which God has created for participation by the faithful, and those that know the truth. (Thinkest thou, then,) that thou canst escape detection, (while thus) enjoining the purificatory rites of Empedocles? For in point of fact you follow in every respect this (philosophe), while you instruct your own disciples to refuse meats, in order not to eat any body (that might be) a remnant of a soul which has been punished by the Demiurge. You dissolve marriages that have been cemented by the Deity. And here again you conform to the tenets of Empedocles, in order that for you the work of Friendship may be perpetuated as one (and) indivisible. For, according to Empedocles, matrimony separates unity, and makes (out of it) plurality, as we have proved.

The principal heresy of Marcion, and (the one of his) which is most free from admixture (with other heresies), is that which has its system formed out of the theory concerning the good and bad (God). Now this, it has been manifested by us, belongs to Empedocles. But since at present, in our times, a certain follower of Marcion, (namely) Prepon, an Assyrian, has endeavoured to introduce something more novel, and has given an account of his heresy in a work inscribed to Bardesanes, an Armenian, neither of this will I be silent. In alleging that what is just constitutes a third principle, and that it is placed intermediate between what is good and bad, Prepon of course is not able to avoid (the imputation of inculcating) the opinion of Empedocles. For Empedocles asserts that the world is managed by wicked Discord, and that the other (world) which (is managed) by Friendship, is cognisable by intellect. And (he asserts) that these are the two different principles of good and evil, and that intermediate between these diverse principles is impartial reason, in accordance with which are united the things that have been separated by Discord, (and which,) in accordance with the influence of Friendship, are accommodated to unity. The impartial reason itself, that which is an auxiliary to Friendship, Empedocles denominates "Musa." And he himself likewise entreats her to assist him, and expresses himself somehow thus:- "For if on fleeting mortals, deathless Muse, Thy care it be that thoughts our mind engross, Calliope, again befriend my present prayer, As I disclose a pure account of happy gods."

Marcion, adopting these sentiments, rejected altogether the generation of our Saviour (= as in the gospel of Mark i.e. no birth narrative). He considered it to be absurd that under the creature fashioned by destructive Discord should have been the Logos that was an auxiliary to Friendship--that is, the Good Deity. (His doctrine,) however, was that, independent of birth, (in the gospel of Mark) Himself descended from above in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, and that, as being intermediate between the good and bad Deity, He proceeded to give instruction in the synagogues. For if He is a Mediator, He has been, he says, liberated from the entire nature of the Evil Deity. Now, as he affirms, the Demiurge is evil, and his works. For this reason, he affirms, Jesus came down unbegotten, in order that He might be liberated from all (admixture of) evil. And He has, he says, been liberated from the nature of the Good One likewise, in order that He may be a Mediator, as Paul states, and as Himself acknowledges: "Why call ye me good? there is one good," These, then, are the opinions of Marcion, by means of which he made many his dupes, employing the conclusions of Empedocles. And he transferred the philosophy invented by that (ancient speculator) into his own system of thought, and (out of Empedocles) constructed his (own) impious heresy. But I consider that this has been sufficiently refuted by us, and that I have not omitted any opinion of those who purloin their opinions from the Greeks, and act despitefully towards the disciples of Christ, as if they had become teachers to them of these (tenets). But since it seems that we have sufficiently explained the doctrines of this (heretic), let us see what Carpocrates says.
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Re: Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

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The same idea appears in Irenaeus - i.e. that the Marcionites used Mark. Not surprising as Marcion is a subform of Mark. In other words, 'Marcion' was created to put some distance between the founder of the 'Marcionites.' Marcion means the 'lesser Mark' - i.e. not these are those of another Mark besides the founder of the Marcionite sect, in short it is an attempt to deny that the Marcionites represent the surviving tradition associated with the original gospel writer. If it were allowed to stand (i.e. that the Marcionites were followers of Mark and their tradition 'his' tradition, the Catholic Church could never have co-opted the text and their association with the other garbage texts would be unconvincing proofs that their tradition had any merit.

As history unfolded the Gospel of Mark was co-opted. Matthew was developed as the 'first' gospel, Luke became the text that Marcion corrupted according to Irenaeus (i.e. rather than what the Marcionites claimed viz. that their 'Mark' wrote Mark). Irenaeus only comes up with the Luke formulation the second time around c. 180 CE and Mark was pretty much forgotten thereafter. Mark becomes an 'also ran' text 'supporting' Matthew and the Marcionites are similarly trivialized as an 'also ran' sect which corrupted Luke a third rate gospel rather than what was actually true (i.e. they represented the surviving remnant of Markan Christianity).
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Re: Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

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And I think that what often gets missed in this citation above is that Prepon is the source for the Philosophumena's claim that the Marcionites used a gospel attributed to Mark:

When, therefore, Marcion or some one of his hounds (= Prepon) barks against the Demiurge, and adduces reasons from a comparison of what is good and bad, we ought to say to them, that neither Paul the apostle nor Mark, he of the maimed finger, announced such (tenets). For none of these (doctrines) has been written in the Gospel according to Mark. But is Empedocles, son of Meto, a native of Agrigentum. And despoiled this (philosopher), and imagined that up to the present would pass undetected his transference, under the same expressions, of the arrangement of his entire heresy from Sicily into the evangelical narratives (of Mark). For bear with me, O Marcion: as you have instituted a comparison of what is good and evil, I also to-day will institute a comparison following up your own tenets, as you suppose them to be.

Already it would seem Prepon is in the mind of the author of the Philosophumena. He has an idea of what 'is usually' said about the Marcionites but his purpose is to reinforce the traditional notion of Marcion as a strict dualist. Notice that Marcion is said to have despoiled Empedocles so that the claim that he is a strict dualist is upheld. As such Marcion put the new things into Mark - not Prepon - and these 'new things' in Mark demonstrate or prove that he was a strict dualist.

What follows is a series of statement about what the Marcionites are generally acknowledged to believe (taken almost straight from Irenaeus's books):
You affirm that the Demiurge of the world is evil (see opening statement)--why not hide your countenance in shame, (as thus) teaching to the Church the doctrines of Empedocles? (see above)

You say that there is a good Deity who destroys the works of the Demiurge: then do not you plainly preach to your pupils, as the good Deity, the Friendship (Philia) of Empedocles.

You forbid marriage, the procreation of children, (and) the abstaining from meats which God has created for participation by the faithful, and those that know the truth. (Thinkest thou, then,) that thou canst escape detection, (while thus) enjoining the purificatory rites of Empedocles?

For in point of fact you follow in every respect this (philosopher), while you instruct your own disciples to refuse meats, in order not to eat any body (that might be) a remnant of a soul which has been punished by the Demiurge.

You dissolve marriages that have been cemented by the Deity. And here again you conform to the tenets of Empedocles, in order that for you the work of Friendship may be perpetuated as one (and) indivisible.

For, according to Empedocles, matrimony separates unity, and makes (out of it) plurality, as we have proved.
The implication here is that if Marcion himself added Empedoclean doctrines to the Gospel of Mark then Prepon's further claim that Jesus was an adjunct to Philia, the Good God is a misrepresentation of the original system. We learn from other Marcionites that there were three divinities - a Good God, a Just God and the fiery 'mediator' divinity (= Jesus). So the author continues:
The principal heresy of Marcion, and (the one of his) which is most free from admixture, is that which has its system formed out of the theory concerning the good and bad. Now this, it has been manifested by us, belongs to Empedocles. But since at present, in our times, a certain follower of Marcion, (namely) Prepon, an Assyrian, has endeavoured to introduce something more novel, and has given an account of his heresy in a work inscribed to Bardesanes, an Armenian, neither of this will I be silent. In alleging that what is just constitutes a third principle, and that it is placed intermediate between what is good and bad, Prepon of course is not able to avoid (the imputation of inculcating) the opinion of Empedocles. For Empedocles asserts that the world is managed by wicked Discord, and that the other (world) which (is managed) by Friendship, is cognisable by intellect. And (he asserts) that these are the two different principles of good and evil, and that intermediate between these diverse principles is impartial reason, in accordance with which are united the things that have been separated by Discord, (and which,) in accordance with the influence of Friendship, are accommodated to unity. The impartial reason itself, that which is an auxiliary to Friendship, Empedocles denominates "Musa." And he himself likewise entreats her to assist him, and expresses himself somehow thus:- "For if on fleeting mortals, deathless Muse, Thy care it be that thoughts our mind engross, Calliope, again befriend my present prayer, As I disclose a pure account of happy gods."
The point of course is that Prepon's system doesn't look very much like the strict dualism that is necessary to claim that Empedocles is the real author of the heresy. To this end the author goes on and tackles Prepon's arguments from the gospel of Mark:
Marcion, adopting these sentiments, rejected altogether the generation of our Saviour. He (Prepon) considered it to be absurd that under the creature fashioned by destructive Discord should have been the Logos that was an auxiliary to Friendship (i.e. Prepon's position!)--that is, the Good Deity. (His doctrine,) however, was that, independent of birth, (in the gospel of Mark) Himself descended from above in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, and that, as being intermediate between the good and bad Deity, He proceeded to give instruction in the synagogues. For if He is a Mediator (as Prepon holds), He has been, he says, liberated from the entire nature of the Evil Deity. Now, as he affirms, the Demiurge is evil, and his works. For this reason, he affirms, Jesus came down unbegotten, in order that He might be liberated from all (admixture of) evil. And He has, he (Prepon) says, been liberated from the nature of the Good One likewise, in order that He may be a Mediator, as Paul states, and as Himself acknowledges: "Why call ye me good? there is one good,"
All of these arguments clearly suppose Prepon's 'three god' argument as developed from the Gospel of Mark. Yet the author's point is that even though they claim this or that from the gospel, their doctrines still derive from Empedocles:
These, then, are the opinions of Marcion, by means of which he made many his dupes, employing the conclusions of Empedocles. And he transferred the philosophy invented by that (ancient speculator) into his own system of thought, and (out of Empedocles) constructed his (own) impious heresy. But I consider that this has been sufficiently refuted by us, and that I have not omitted any opinion of those who purloin their opinions from the Greeks, and act despitefully towards the disciples of Christ, as if they had become teachers to them of these (tenets).
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Re: Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

Post by stephan happy huller »

FWIW - to prepon, in Greek = decorum
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Re: Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

Post by Bernard Muller »

To Stephan,
I do not see in your quotes anything clear-cut that Marcion wrote his gospel from gMark. That's your interpretation: for examples,
1) "however, was that, independent of birth, (in the gospel of Mark) Himself descended from above in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar,"
You added up (in the gospel of Mark), but the "independent of birth" most likely is relative to Marcion's gospel, itself with no birth narrative.
2)"of the arrangement of his entire heresy from Sicily into the evangelical narratives (of Mark)"
You added up (of Mark) but I do not see here why "evangelical narratives" would mean gMark.

BTW, I got two arguments showing gLuke was written before gMarcion:
http://historical-jesus.sosblogs.com/Hi ... b1-p57.htm

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

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stephan happy huller wrote:Does the question of the historicity of the gospel come down to a question of whether the text originally intended to portray an earthly or heavenly stranger? If we acknowledge Joseph was a very late addition then a mother specifically named 'Mary' was yet another layer of the same onion. While Luke 8:19 - 20 reads:
Now Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.” He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.”
The Marcionite version clearly resembled what appears in our canonical Mark for it adds 'Who is my mother and my brethren?', not recorded by Luke, but present in Matt. 12: 48 and Mark 3: 33. Notice also that there is no specific mention of a name for Jesus's alleged 'mother.' The purpose of the narrative was to reinforce that 'everyone knew' that Jesus claimed to be from heaven after his appearance in the synagogue.

.....

Why don't we just simplify the 'mythicist' or 'historicist' debate into a much simpler question as to whether the gospel originally said that Jesus was an earthly or heavenly stranger? Can there be any objections here?
The gospel is historical, but the later versions may, as you allude, be different to earlier versions.

The role of the Gnostic texts in the evolution of Christianity ought to be considered.
neilgodfrey wrote:I don't see how it matters to the historicity question whether Jesus is portrayed as an entirely mortal human or someone from heaven.
Well, I'd say if he is initially portrayed as someone from heaven, or early Christian (or protoChristian) texts referred to someone from heaven, that is further support for the proposition an earthly human characterisation was added later.
stephan happy huller wrote: ... Jesus was a figure character (in a story)- whether earthly or heavenly we have yet to determine - who was thought to transform or save the faithful. ... Priests perform the sacred rituals of a religion, especially as a mediatory agent between human and heavenly beings. I don't believe that the gospel ever had a life independent from the sacred rites of the Christian religion.
The point about "Priests performing the sacred rituals of a religion, especially as a mediatory agent between human and heavenly beings" is a good one - such a priest could be what the Jesus story could be based on.

Good points here -
stephan happy huller wrote: ... everything about the text screams out a specifically Jewish or Samaritan cultural milieu. Once this is established the Pentateuch necessarily becomes the ultimate context for the narrative.

... The idea that gospel is a biography of a man doesn't make sense owing to the Jewish context of early Christianity.

The gospel wasn't being developed in a void.
stephan happy huller wrote: Either Christianity was claiming that Jesus was an earthly stranger who deserved worship (something that seems wholly incompatible with the assumed Jewish culture context behind Christianit), or Jesus was a god and the gospel narrative was the story of the fulfillment of his heavenly visitation. I don't know why it needs to be more complicated than that
or a bit of both - a sage was deified as a messiah for telling a narrative of the fulfillment of a heavenly visitation

stephan happy huller wrote: unless white people want to project their own cultural tradition into the gospel. But why?
That has been happening quite a lot over the last 12-1400 yrs :)

I think Bernard Muller makes some good points -
Bernard Muller wrote: If Jesus was later worshipped, that was way after his crucifixion, and because then, for Gentiles (forget here about Jewish culture), he was presented as the Christ/Son_of_God, second or equal to the Father and the Savior of Christians by the Sacrifice.

How did a simple uneducated Galilean with a short local public life come to start all that:
http://historical-jesus.sosblogs.com/Hi ... b1-p50.htm

What happened after the crucifixion, how and why he was deified, is explained here:
http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3x.html
or Jesus was a god and the gospel narrative was the story of the fulfillment of his heavenly visitation.
Paul, 'Hebrews', the gospels, Philo of Alexandria's writings made him look like that: with post-existence (forever), then with pre-existence (from the beginning of time or before), making Jesus an eternal god with a brief visit on earth (which was then greatly embellished and added up with a lot of fiction).

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

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stephan happy huller wrote:I don't know that early Christians could have developed their faith with the bounds of mere 'literary criticism.' Jesus was a figure - whether earthly or heavenly we have yet to determine - who was thought to transform or save the faithful. I don't think this transformation could have taken place within 'literary criticism' alone.
I'm saying literary criticism is our tool for glimpsing who these people were -- they were not the literary critics.
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Re: Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

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Wouldn't literary criticism be more a tool for glimpsing at who wrote the texts?
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Re: Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

Post by Bernard Muller »

Wouldn't literary criticism be more a tool for glimpsing at who wrote the texts?
Yes, but beyond that, determine what is embellishment, what is exaggeration, what is fiction.

Cordially, Bernard
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