The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

MrMacSon wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:45 pm Vinzent portrays Papias as anti-Marcionite in Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels, 2014, so perhaps Papias was facilitating 'the competition' -

.
[Papias] reports that the Twelve had 'to make up for the traitor Judas', a story known from Acts which indirectly excludes Paul from being an Apostle.65

I do not think that this story belongs to Papias. It is found in Eusebius, History of the Church 3.39.10, and it appears to be Eusebius' own expansion, from Acts, of what Papias had said about Justus. At least, I would have to see the argument for this bit being Papian in origin; the grammar as I see it sides with it coming from Eusebius: Τοῦτον δὲ τὸν Ἰοῦστον μετὰ τὴν τοῦ σωτῆρος ἀνάληψιν τοὺς ἱεροὺς ἀποστόλους μετὰ Ματθία στῆσαί τε καὶ ἐπεύξασθαι ἀντὶ τοῦ προδότου Ἰούδα ἐπὶ τὸν κλῆρον τῆς ἀναπληρώσεως τοῦ αὐτῶν ἀριθμοῦ ἡ τῶν Πράξεων ὧδέ πως ἱστορεῖ γραφή....
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MrMacSon
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Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:46 pm
I do not think that this story belongs to Papias. It is found in Eusebius, History of the Church 3.39.10, and it appears to be Eusebius' own expansion, from Acts, of what Papias had said about Justus. At least, I would have to see the argument for this bit being Papian in origin; the grammar as I see it sides with it coming from Eusebius: Τοῦτον δὲ τὸν Ἰοῦστον μετὰ τὴν τοῦ σωτῆρος ἀνάληψιν τοὺς ἱεροὺς ἀποστόλους μετὰ Ματθία στῆσαί τε καὶ ἐπεύξασθαι ἀντὶ τοῦ προδότου Ἰούδα ἐπὶ τὸν κλῆρον τῆς ἀναπληρώσεως τοῦ αὐτῶν ἀριθμοῦ ἡ τῶν Πράξεων ὧδέ πως ἱστορεῖ γραφή....
Vinzent has Eusebius, History of the Church 3.39.10 in footnote 65 -
MrMacSon wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:45 pm
Vinzent portrays Papias as anti-Marcionite in Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels, 2014, so perhaps Papias was facilitating 'the competition' -

.
[Papias] reports that the Twelve had 'to make up for the traitor Judas', a story known from Acts which indirectly excludes Paul from being an Apostle.65

< . . . snip [from previous post] . . . >

Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels, 2014, p.13.

65 According to Euseb. Hist. eccl. III 39,10; see Acts 1:17-25.
.

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Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

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MrMacSon wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:22 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:46 pm
I do not think that this story belongs to Papias. It is found in Eusebius, History of the Church 3.39.10, and it appears to be Eusebius' own expansion, from Acts, of what Papias had said about Justus. At least, I would have to see the argument for this bit being Papian in origin; the grammar as I see it sides with it coming from Eusebius: Τοῦτον δὲ τὸν Ἰοῦστον μετὰ τὴν τοῦ σωτῆρος ἀνάληψιν τοὺς ἱεροὺς ἀποστόλους μετὰ Ματθία στῆσαί τε καὶ ἐπεύξασθαι ἀντὶ τοῦ προδότου Ἰούδα ἐπὶ τὸν κλῆρον τῆς ἀναπληρώσεως τοῦ αὐτῶν ἀριθμοῦ ἡ τῶν Πράξεων ὧδέ πως ἱστορεῖ γραφή....
Vinzent has Eusebius, History of the Church 3.39.10 in footnote 65 -
MrMacSon wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:45 pm
Vinzent portrays Papias as anti-Marcionite in Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels, 2014, so perhaps Papias was facilitating 'the competition' -

.
[Papias] reports that the Twelve had 'to make up for the traitor Judas', a story known from Acts which indirectly excludes Paul from being an Apostle.65

< . . . snip [from previous post] . . . >

Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels, 2014, p.13.

65 According to Euseb. Hist. eccl. III 39,10; see Acts 1:17-25.
.

Yes, and I am saying that this line appears to be all Eusebius, zero Papias.
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Giuseppe
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Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:34 am
Yes, and I am saying that this line appears to be all Eusebius, zero Papias.
Carrier says that Eusebius called Papias an "idiot" just because Papias reported these (indeed stupid and too much incredible to be believed even for an Eusebius) things about Judas.

Also Ehrman argues the same thing, if I remember well, in the his book on Peter and Mary Magdalene.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

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Giuseppe wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:57 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:34 am
Yes, and I am saying that this line appears to be all Eusebius, zero Papias.
Carrier says that Eusebius called Papias an "idiot" just because Papias reported these (indeed stupid and too much incredible to be believed even for an Eusebius) things about Judas.

Also Ehrman argues the same thing, if I remember well, in the his book on Peter and Mary Magdalene.
It is, rather, a rich tapestry of reasons, not just one:

Eusebius, History of the Church 3.39.11-13: 11 And the same man sets out other things also as having come to him from unwritten tradition, certain strange parables of the savior and teachings of his, and certain other more mythical things. 12 Among which also he says that there will be a certain millennium of years after the resurrection of the dead, the kingdom of Christ being established bodily upon this very earth. Which things, I suppose, he got by having welcomed the apostolic accounts, not having seen that the things spoken through them were spoken mystically, in patterns. 13 For indeed, that his mental capacity was very small, as is proven from his words, is apparent. But he also was responsible for so very many of the churchmen after him being of his same opinion, putting forward the antiquity of the man, like Irenaeus then, and any other if he has proclaimed that he thinks the same things.

Carrier has proven himself to be sloppy. I would not trust him on the details.
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Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

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This is what I think Vinzent gets wrong, according to the bit quoted above by MrMacSon:

Eusebius, History of the Church 3.39.9-10: 9 That Philip the apostle lived in Heirapolis together with his daughters has been made clear before. But as regards them let it be noted that Papias, their contemporary, mentions a wondrous account that he received from the daughters of Philip. For he recounts a resurrection from the dead in his time, and yet another paradox about Justus who was surnamed Barsabbas, as having drunk a deadly poison and yet, through the grace of the Lord, suffered no harm. 10 And the writing of the Acts records that, after the taking up of the savior, the holy apostles stood this Justus up with Matthias and prayed for the filling up of their number instead of the traitor Judas, in his slot, thus: "And they stood up two, Joseph who is called Barsabbas, surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed and spoke."

Eusebius could not be clearer here, I think. Papias said that Justus survived drinking poison; Acts said that Justus was a candidate alongside Matthias to take Judas' spot. Eusebius was just letting his readers know who this Justus mentioned by Papias was. I suspect that Vinzent wants to find (more) evidence that Papias was reacting to Marcion, and has read this paragraph a bit carelessly. But I am happy to be proved wrong.
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Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

Post by Giuseppe »

Vinzent uses Papias' Fragment 21 as evidence of Papias involving in anti-Marcionite polemic.


http://markusvinzent.blogspot.com/2012/ ... mment-form
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:19 am Carrier has proven himself to be sloppy. I would not trust him on the details.
frankly, the legend about Judas seems precisely the kind of things that may give occasion for Eusebius criticism of Papias mind as poor. It is the fact that Papias gave more importance to oral tradition (than the written tradition) and that therefore even the legend about Judas should be believed blindly that may raise easily that accusation.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

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Giuseppe wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:52 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:19 am Carrier has proven himself to be sloppy. I would not trust him on the details.
frankly, the legend about Judas seems precisely the kind of things that may give occasion for Eusebius criticism of Papias mind as poor. It is the fact that Papias gave more importance to oral tradition (than the written tradition) and that therefore even the legend about Judas should be believed blindly that may raise easily that accusation.
You know me: I just want to see it in the text. Idle speculations mean nothing to me. I want to see the dots connected. Otherwise we are just making it up as we go along.
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:46 am Vinzent uses Papias' Fragment 21 as evidence of Papias involving in anti-Marcionite polemic.

http://markusvinzent.blogspot.com/2012/ ... mment-form
Yes, but that is not what I was responding to.
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Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

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MrMacSon wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:22 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:46 pm
I do not think that this story belongs to Papias. It is found in Eusebius, History of the Church 3.39.10, and it appears to be Eusebius' own expansion, from Acts, of what Papias had said about Justus. At least, I would have to see the argument for this bit being Papian in origin; the grammar as I see it sides with it coming from Eusebius: Τοῦτον δὲ τὸν Ἰοῦστον μετὰ τὴν τοῦ σωτῆρος ἀνάληψιν τοὺς ἱεροὺς ἀποστόλους μετὰ Ματθία στῆσαί τε καὶ ἐπεύξασθαι ἀντὶ τοῦ προδότου Ἰούδα ἐπὶ τὸν κλῆρον τῆς ἀναπληρώσεως τοῦ αὐτῶν ἀριθμοῦ ἡ τῶν Πράξεων ὧδέ πως ἱστορεῖ γραφή....

Vinzent has Eusebius, History of the Church 3.39.10 in footnote 65 -
MrMacSon wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:45 pm
Vinzent portrays Papias as anti-Marcionite in Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels, 2014, so perhaps Papias was facilitating 'the competition' -

.
[Papias] reports that the Twelve had 'to make up for the traitor Judas', a story known from Acts which indirectly excludes Paul from being an Apostle.65

< . . . snip [from previous post] . . . >

Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels, 2014, p.13.

65 According to Euseb. Hist. eccl. III 39,10; see Acts 1:17-25.
.

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:34 am
Yes, and I am saying that this line appears to be all Eusebius, zero Papias.
.
Ah, ok. I wasn't sure ("what Papias had said about Justus" threw me off).

As I have said or inferred previously, Eusebius seems to take licence to reify an embellished early church 'history'.

More in the next post ...
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