"can one understand why early Christian writers, like Paul and John, may have felt that Stoic ideas were more congenial than Platonic ones for bringing out their own understanding of God, Jesus Christ, the ‘Spirit’ and the meaning of these three entities for human beings?"
https://blog.oup.com/2017/09/stoicism-p ... t=p3V6FzZK
Stoicism, Platonism, and the Jewishness of Early Christianity
Stoicism, Platonism, and the Jewishness of Early Christianity
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Re: Stoicism, Platonism, and the Jewishness of Early Christianity
Engberg-Pedersen is a master who imo has superbly shown how the theological concepts in Paul are better understood within the frame of the Stoic ethical and cosmological conceptions than the Platonic ones. But imo he tragically fails to appreciate the Jewish conceptions! I.e. the conceptions found in the Jewish texts of the second temple period and antiquity.
This is typical of him:
This is typical of him:
The best way to capture the Jewishness of their message is to read Jewish texts, not Stoic or Platonic. He should try and do that sometime.Here, however, the question to be raised is whether a “Stoicizing” reading of Paul and John is not in fact better suited than a Platonic one to capture specifically the evident Jewishness of their message?
Re: Stoicism, Platonism, and the Jewishness of Early Christianity
My understanding of Stoicism is not nearly as good as my mis-understanding of Platonism.MrMacSon wrote: ↑Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:09 pm"can one understand why early Christian writers, like Paul and John, may have felt that Stoic ideas were more congenial than Platonic ones for bringing out their own understanding of God, Jesus Christ, the ‘Spirit’ and the meaning of these three entities for human beings?"
https://blog.oup.com/2017/09/stoicism-p ... t=p3V6FzZK
However, I have heard before that "Paul's" way of looking at things is congenial to Stoicism.
Being a "divider" of Paul (original Hellenized Judean letters vs. their Interpolations) I am not sure is this is based on the theology or the cultural characteristics they display.
While not derived directly from Platonism (as Aristotle's teachings did, although largely transformed) Stoicism was not incompatible with Platonism. Zeno the founder was inspired to study philosophy because he really enjoyed Plato's portrayal of Socrates and his method. What his school contributed to Platonism was, I believe, Zeno's Ethical teachings. Even someone so Judean as Philo, Hellenized as he was, also Stoicized his interpretation of Platonism.
DCH
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Re: Stoicism, Platonism, and the Jewishness of Early Christianity
One possible issue is that during the period c 50 BCE to c 200 CE there is a general rise in popularity of Platonism at the expense of stoicism. The NT writings come in the early part of this transition, when stoic ideas were more widespread than specifically Platonic ones.
Andrew Criddle
Andrew Criddle
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Re: Stoicism, Platonism, and the Jewishness of Early Christianity
I would say Christianity was influenced by both. Some people were mixing Platonism and Stoicism before the Christian era. This website gives a good overview of Platonism and some of it's overlaps with Stoicism.
https://www.iep.utm.edu/midplato/
https://www.iep.utm.edu/midplato/
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Re: Stoicism, Platonism, and the Jewishness of Early Christianity
That's what Engberg-Pedersen have often pointed out. In a sense, Stoicism has gone under the radar as a backdrop for Paul and NT theology, because 'Platonism' has stolen all the spotlight.andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:50 am One possible issue is that during the period c 50 BCE to c 200 CE there is a general rise in popularity of Platonism at the expense of stoicism. The NT writings come in the early part of this transition, when stoic ideas were more widespread than specifically Platonic ones.
Andrew Criddle
His two main books on this whole thing are Paul and the Stoics (2000) and Cosmology and Self in the Apostle Paul: The Material Spirit (2010)