Anybody know of any other religions other than...

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Anybody know of any other religions other than...

Post by neilgodfrey »

One narrative has the narrator intrude into the account and express his personal doubts; the other leaves only enemies of Jesus expressing doubts prior to the miracle. The echoes of the miracles of Elijah and Elisha indicates reader expectations. Would an author, further, have the lead character command secrecy if he had merely woken the girl from sleep?

However we look at it, the hero of Philostratus by no means surpasses Jesus as a miracle worker. Further, Philostratus cannot even be thought to be attempting any such feat by any comparison of these two miracles.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Anybody know of any other religions other than...

Post by Giuseppe »

Only to think that Philostratus's Apollonyus was designed even only partially as rival to Christ (and not possibly the contrary) is 100% pure Christian apologetics masked as serious scholarship.

It remembers the propaganda of the Roman generals: yes, Hannibal, Jugurtha, Mitridates, Vercingetorix, Boudicca, even Israel (sic) were very powerful and very dangerous adversaries... .."but even more so who won them all!"


As the propagandistic/apologetical logic goes:

1) Apollonyus was greater than Christ, per Philostratus

2) but then Christ is greater than Apollonyus, per all us! And the "evidence" is under the eyes of anyone!
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
andrewcriddle
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Re: Anybody know of any other religions other than...

Post by andrewcriddle »

One of the problems here is that it is unclear how much of the material in Philostratus is historical (or at least historical tradition) and how much is invention. IF one accepts maria Dzielska's argument that the historical Apollonius was born c 40 CE then the date of his birth in Philostratus (c 3 BCE) may be significant. It may be intended to make Apollonius an exact contemporary of Jesus.

Andrew Criddle
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Anybody know of any other religions other than...

Post by neilgodfrey »

As debated a century ago....

F.C. Conybeare in his criticism of the Christ Myth advocates of his day drew a series of close parallels between Jesus and Apollonius:
Apollonius, like Jesus and Pythagoras, was an incarnation of an earlier being; he, too, worked miracles, and appeared after death to an incredulous follower, and ascended into heaven bodily. The stories of his miracles of healing, of his expulsions of demons, and raising of the dead, read exactly like chapters out of the Gospels. He, like Jesus and Pythagoras, had a god Proteus for his father, and was born of a virgin. His birth was marked in the heavens by meteoric portents. His history bristles with tales closely akin to those which were soon told of Jesus; yet all sound scholars are agreed that his biographer did not imitate the Gospels, but wrote independently of them.

Conybeare, F. C. (Frederick Cornwallis). 1914. The Historical Christ : Or, An Investigation of the Views of Mr. J. M. Robertson, Dr. A. Drews, and Prof. W. B. Smith. London : Watts. p. 6
W.B. Smith responded to the parallels thus:
But is it a parallel? Certainly and absolutely, No. How much romance may lie in Philostratus’s so-called “Life of Apollonius,” we need not here discuss, nor the numerous apparent echoes of the Gospels, but all efforts to show that Apollonius is a parallel to Jesus are idle, now as in the days of Hierocles. Let us consider some specimens.

Page 6 of The Historical Christ bewilders greatly. One wonders where to find such data,—certainly not in Philostratus. Exaggeration marks nearly every sentence. E. g., “He had a god Proteus for his father.” But Philostratus says, “his father bore the same name” (Apollonius), adding that a “phantom of an Egyptian demon came to his mother while pregnant,” whom she undismayed asked what she would bear, and who replied, “Me.” She asked, “But who are you”? and he answered “Proteus.” That is all, and is interpreted by Philostratus as presaging the versatility of his hero. Philostratus subjoins that the natives say that Apollonius was a child (paida) of Zeus, but “he calls himself son of Apollonius.” It is not even hinted but positively excluded that he “was born of a virgin.” The meteoric portents “in the heavens” reduce to this: “the natives say that just as he was born a thunderbolt, seeming to be going to fall on the earth, was carried up in the ether and disappeared on high”—just an ordinary fancy after the fact and symbolizing future distinction, as interpreted by Philostratus.

He “appeared after death to an incredulous believer.” Verily, but in a dream only! The youth “fell asleep,” after praying for nine months that “Apollonius would clear up the doctrine about the soul,” then “starting up from rudely broken slumber and streaming with perspiration” he cried, “I believe thee.” His companions asking what was the matter, he said, “See ye not Apollonius the sage, that he is present with us, hearkening to our discourse and reciting wondrous words about the soul” ? They though see nothing. The youth says, “He seems to come to converse with me alone concerning what I believed not,” and then quotes to them what Apollonius said. All a mere dream, such as any one might have of a revered teacher, and told as a dream, of course with some rhetorical embellishment.

He “ascended into heaven bodily.” Philostratus gives three stories of his death: first, that he came to his end in Ephesus, tended by two handmaids; second, that it was in Lindus, where he entered into the temple of Athena and disappeared within; third, that it was still more wonderful, in Crete, where he came to the temple of Dictynna late at night; the guardian dogs, though fierce, fawned upon him, but the guardian men seized and bound him as a wizard and robber; at midnight he loosed his bonds, and calling witnesses ran to the temple doors, which opened wide and then closed after receiving him, while rang out a voice of maidens singing, “Ascend from earth, ascend to heaven, ascend.” The story is told by Philostratus merely as a story, not as a fact; its symbolic meaning is manifest.

This same note of exaggeration sounds through Conybeare’s translation of Philostratus, and almost converts it into a tendence- writing. Thus he says, “Apollonius heals a demoniac boy,” but Apollonius had naught to do with it; the actor is “one of the sages,” the Indian sages; Apollonius is not mentioned in the chapter (XXXVIII, Bk. III). “The sage” means the Indian sage, who moreover is not even said to heal the boy, but merely to address a threatening letter .to the “ghost,”1—nothing is said of the result. Conybeare regularly speaks of Apollonius as “the sage,” but not Philostratus, who says regularly “the man” (of Tyana). Another “miracle of healing a lame man” turns out to be setting a dislocated hip; “but their hands having massaged the hip, upright of gait the youth went.” Conybeare says “immediately,” but not Philostratus. “And another man had had his eyes put out, and he went away having recovered the sight of both of them.” Philostratus says, “And one having been flowing as to his eyes (...) went away all having in them light.” The reference seems to be to bleared, rheumy,2 weak or watery eyes cured by the manipulations of the Indian sages. “Another had his hand paralyzed but left their presence in full possession of the limb.” Philostratus says “another being weak in his hand, went away strong” (egkrates, empowered),—as well he might with no miracle. “Abaris who traveled on a broomstick through the air. .. .is rivaled in his enterprise by Apollonius”; but Philostratus merely says that “to some occurred the report of Abaris of old, and that he [Apollonius] might launch into something similar, but he [Apollonius] without even declaring his mind to Damis set sail with him for Achaia.”

Examples of this tendency could be multiplied almost ad libitum. Undoubtedly Philostratus means to cast a glamour of the extraordinary over his hero (though apparently avoiding any unequivocal affirmation of the miraculous) : he tells many traveler’s tales and sets down all sorts of popular stories, mainly of supernormal insight, foresight, and second sight. Such legends gather round many or all notable characters, and many not notable. . . . . .

Smith, William Benjamin. 1915. “Conybeare on ‘The Historical Christ.’” The Open Court 3 (4): 27.
The passage goes on to explain the evidence that leads some scholars to believe Apollonius was indeed a historical person. It also contrasts the style and tone of the narratives of Philostratus and the gospels.

I'm not presenting this as a final word. There is much I have not yet read about the respective arguments.
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