The Biggest Lie in the Study of Earliest Christianity

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
andrewcriddle
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Re: The Biggest Lie in the Study of Earliest Christianity

Post by andrewcriddle »

Secret Alias wrote:Do you think a post-Islamic text would have the objections cited by Abu'l Fath:
The situation reached the stage where the possibility of the Creator's "Speaking" was denied. And the Mission of the Messengers is (implicitly) denied by whoever denies that the trustworthy Message has been uttered.
In fact the question of whether philosophy is compatible with the idea of God sending prophets is an issue in early Islam
See for example Islamic Thought

Andrew Criddle
Secret Alias
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Re: The Biggest Lie in the Study of Earliest Christianity

Post by Secret Alias »

What am I supposed to say to that? :tomato: Yes and Islam takes a great interest in the question of whether or not God can speak. But so what? What do know about Samaritan culture from the period? They certainly were philosophically inclined. What do we know about Marinus for instance? The list goes on and on. We know less than we know. Since you agree that Abu'l Fath is using a source of some kind what kind of source do you imagine he had before him? Who wrote this account of Commodus sending Alexander of Aphrodisias getting into a philosophical argument with an other wise unknown high priest which leads to the destruction of the literary culture of the Samaritan people? You make it seem as if the underlying purpose of the document was to introduce Aristotlean themes. The 'philosophy' is only used as a pretext to explain how the Samaritan culture was demolished, the priestly lineage disrupted, etc. The author is clearly a Samaritan. Who else gives a flying whatever about the Samaritans and their culture? So we agree that the author was a Samaritan. But what kind of Samaritan was willing to admit that the priestly lineage was tampered with? That Samaritan books were destroyed en masse? And then whoever this person was, his composition was taken up by Abu'l Fath and used for his chronology. Silly, silly, silly ...
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
andrewcriddle
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Re: The Biggest Lie in the Study of Earliest Christianity

Post by andrewcriddle »

FWIW The debate before Ptolemy between Jews and Samaritans (Abu l'Fath chapter XXVIII Pages 104 - 110 of Abu l'Fath Pages 129 -138 of Stenhouse) contains arguments about the possible Abrogation of the Law and the relevance of the substance-accident distinction, which are only plausible in an Islamic context and particularly in the context of Islamic Jewish controversy.

See for example After Hardship...

Andrew Criddle
Secret Alias
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Re: The Biggest Lie in the Study of Earliest Christianity

Post by Secret Alias »

... which are only plausible in an Islamic context and particularly in the context of Islamic Jewish controversy
Sure. At least you are consistent. You put the inherited Christian texts, the bedrock of your personal faith on one side of the ledger accepting the dates given by the authorities basically and believing in the hocus pocus contained therein but are hypercritical and ever willing to accept massive conspiracy theories for any text that might challenge that acceptance and belief. I admire your consistency.

If you at least presented a comprehensive argument for what you are suggesting - i.e. HOW it could be the only plausible age the source came about I'd have something constructive to work with. As it stands now there is only the consistent psychological motivation which shines through your approach.

The basic problem in your outlook as I see it is that you assume that we know how philosophical ideas developed in the history of ideas by just laying out the surviving texts. The facts are that a very small percentage of texts from antiquity survived. We simply don't know how philosophical ideas were preserved or more importantly if ideas popped up and died more than once in the course of civilization (and both within civilizations and within the continuum of ideas).
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: The Biggest Lie in the Study of Earliest Christianity

Post by Secret Alias »

And in favor of Abu'l Fath using an ancient Samaritan source is the agreement with the Samaritan Christian Justin regarding the figure of Herod/Orodes in the Ptolemy narrative . Hard to explain that one away (but apologists inevitably will).
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: The Biggest Lie in the Study of Earliest Christianity

Post by Secret Alias »

And it's a good thing that I have pretty good familiarity trying to reconstruct the text beneath the later chapters of De Recta in Deum Fide and Maximus (as cited in Eusebius). A similar interest in 'accidents' comes up in that discussion - https://books.google.com/books?id=KI6Bu ... nt&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=KI6Bu ... ts&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: The Biggest Lie in the Study of Earliest Christianity

Post by Secret Alias »

Eusebius citing Maximus Prep. Ev. 7
'But I suppose you will meet my argument in this way, that the artist makes the art which is in the material substance out of the art which he has in himself. Now in answer to this I think it may fairly be said, that it is not produced even in the man out of any underlying art. For it is not possible to grant that the art exists independently by itself, since it is one of the accidents, and one of those things which have existence given to them at the moment when they are produced in a substance.

'For the man will exist even apart from his skill as an architect, but this will have no existence unless there be first a man. And hence we are compelled to say that it is the nature of the arts to be produced in men out of what is non-existent. If therefore we have now shown this to be so in the case of men, why was it not proper to say that God was able to make not only qualities but also substances out of what was non-existent? For the proof that it is possible for something to be made out of what is non-existent shows that this is the case with the substances also.
and
'But if evils are substances, and murder is an evil, murder will be a substance: yet surely murder is an action of some one, and so murder is not a substance. If however you mean that the agents are substances, I too agree. For example, a man who is a murderer, in respect of his being man is a substance: but the murder which he does is not a substance, but a work of the substance.

'So we say in one case that the man is evil, because of his committing murder, and in a contrary case that he is good, because of his doing good. And these names are attached to the substance in consequence of its accidents, which are not itself: for the substance is not murder, nor again adultery, or any of the like evils. But just as the grammarian is named from grammar, and the rhetorician from rhetoric, and the physician from the art of physic, though his substance is neither the art of physic nor yet rhetoric, nor grammar, but receives the name from its accidents, from which it seems fit to be so called, although it is neither one nor the other of them, in like manner it appears to me that the substance also acquires an additional name from what are thought to be evils, though it is neither of them.

'And in like manner if you imagine some other being in the mind as the cause of evils in men, I would have you consider that he also, inasmuch as he works in them and suggests the doing evil, is himself evil in consequence of what he does. For he too is said to be evil for this reason that he is the doer of evils. But the things which any one does are not himself, but his actions, from which he receives the name of being evil.

'For if we were to say that he himself is what he does, and if he does murders and adulteries and thefts and all the like, then he himself is these: and if he is himself these, and these gain real existence at the time of being done, and in ceasing to be done cease to exist, and it is by men that they are done----then the men must be the makers of themselves and the causes of their own being and ceasing to be.

'Whereas if you say that these are his actions, he has the character of being evil from what he does, not from what constitutes his substance. But we said that a man is called evil from the accidents pertaining to his substance, which are not the substance itself, as the physician from the art of physic.

'If then each man is evil in consequence of his actions, and if his actions receive a beginning of existence, then that man also began to be evil, and these evils too had a beginning. And if this is so, a man will not be without a beginning in evil, nor evils un-originate, because we say that they originate with him.'
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: The Biggest Lie in the Study of Earliest Christianity

Post by Secret Alias »

Pretty:
Rufinus: substantiis accidentia. In all three places where the word occurs, we have rendered the Greek by 'accidental' as the term most likely to convey the meaning of the original, if 'accidental' be understood, not in the popular, but the philosophical sense of something which is not the result of the essential nature of a thing but an external, casual, chance happening or contingency.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
andrewcriddle
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Re: The Biggest Lie in the Study of Earliest Christianity

Post by andrewcriddle »

One can conveniently read Maximus here Of course I am not saying that the use of the substance/accident distinction is in itself evidence of a late date.

The issue is the way the distinction is used by Abu l'Fath (or as we both agree his source).

The Abrogation of divine law is an important issue in Islamic debate particularly debate with Christians and Jews. (The Jewish Saadia Gaon and after him the Samaritan Abu l'Hasan as-Suri respond to this argument.) This debate may possibly go back to Christian anti-Jewish polemic but it is difficult to believe that this sort of debate goes back to the Ptolemies.

FWIW the original editor of Abu l'Fath recognised here the influence of scholasticam Arabum in docendo rationem the scholastic method in the teaching of the Arabians AbulFathi

Andrew Criddle
Secret Alias
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Re: The Biggest Lie in the Study of Earliest Christianity

Post by Secret Alias »

Whenever we go back to 'the original editors' of something we are basically dealing with people who have little familiarity with the subject matter. Right? We don't know what was or wasn't debated before the Common Era. The idea that Abu'l Fath used material which wasn't received directly from the period it covered is believable. But the idea that the entire chronicle was a 'fake' is silly, Andrew and you know it. As I demonstrated, many have noted the parallels with the source used by Justin making the claim that it (and the source for the Commodus narrative) derived solely from the Islamic period highly dubious.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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