Paul without Christ? Impossible!!

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DCHindley
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Paul without Christ? Impossible!!

Post by DCHindley »

The mock hysteria is hyperbole, relax.

Robert j asked me to provide examples from the five letters usually thought to be "authentic" of why I think Christ materials were added to a set of letters.

My headache has gone away (somewhat) so I'd thought I'd start with Galatians, which contains the flagship passage for illustrating his Abraham theology.

Those files in Ben's old TextExcavation website are set up to display the text in two columns. The one on left is where most of it is to be found, representing the text I believe "Paul" could have written. The right column contains the additions by my proposed editor/redactor. I have it set up so the two columns remain in relation one to another.

I'm not sure whether the files in Ben's website are dated 1997 (the first draft) or from 2003 (2nd draft). Unfortunately, it doesn't translate well when converted to a bbCode table so you'll have to open a copy.

A 3rd revision dated 2011 is available as well. While I was going to post a segment from ch 4, I realized that it is a culmination of an argument he had been developing for the chapters 2 and 3, so was anticlimactic. So, I have uploaded a copy (as a PDF). This version dispensed with the side-by-side view in order to allow comparison to passages in the Law and Prophets where these are cited or alluded to. The text I consider to be an editor's commentary & glosses are bolded. There is a chance I have revised this since 2011 and just cannot find the reference.

I just traced the arguments as they were being made, and when I hit one of those "digressions" everyone has had to stop and scratch their head over (these are "aporia" in literary criticism talk), I decided to keep looking until I found the place where the argument picked up again, marking off the intervening text. The text that I ended up with is coherent and kind of pleasant to read. He sounds like a pastor counseling his flock. The stuff that ended up marked off as described above is clearly (to me) commentary from someone holding high christology, with glosses and insertions of random single words or short phrases that appear to be attempts to redirect the subjects to. Basically, the two are worlds apart in POV.

It's late ... 8-)

DCH
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Re: Paul without Christ? Impossible!!

Post by Ben C. Smith »

The web page David is referring to is still up here: http://www.textexcavation.com/dch.html.
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Re: Paul without Christ? Impossible!!

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DCHindley wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:08 pm
Robert j asked me to provide examples from the five letters usually thought to be "authentic" of why I think Christ materials were added to a set of letters.
What I asked for in the other thread was a bit more specific ---
robert j wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:26 am David,
...
In the letters generally considered to be by Paul and addressed to his communities (1 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians and Philippians), what “Christ related segments (that) offered no coherent doctrine between letters” did you find ... ?

A couple of examples?
robert j wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:25 pm ... I'm just looking for a couple of examples of where you found “Christ related segments (that) offered no coherent doctrine between letters” from among the five letters I mentioned.
I’m curious about this because it seems to be one of the important factors that led you to remove all the mentions of a salvific Jesus Christ along with about 30% of the text in order to restore what you perceive to be a more coherent original text.

You wrote about what you found in the letters as we now have them ---
DCHindley wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:40 pm Most all of the materials that intervened between those snippets of Abraham theology, what I call "digressions" and "glosses," were Christ related segments but offered no coherent doctrine between letters, like it was still new and still rough around the edges.
I wouldn't deny that it was still new and rough around the edges. But for those 5 letters generally considered to be authentic and addressed to his communities, I’m asking for a couple of examples (or even one example) of “segments” between letters where the doctrines about Christ are incoherent and seemingly irreconcilable.

ETA I hope your head is feeling better
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Re: Paul without Christ? Impossible!!

Post by FransJVermeiren »

robert j wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:23 am
I wouldn't deny that it was still new and rough around the edges. But for those 5 letters generally considered to be authentic and addressed to his communities, I’m asking for a couple of examples (or even one example) of “segments” between letters where the doctrines about Christ are incoherent and seemingly irreconcilable.
I believe your request/remark is correct. ‘God and his Christ’ are the core of Paul’s gospel. Therefore in my opinion DCHindley’s elimination of all ‘Christ’ mentions from Galatians (and from all of Paul’s letters, I suppose) in the OP is not correct.

The problem with Paul is different: it is not ‘Christ’ but ‘Jesus’ who is alien to his letters. The activity of Jesus under Pontius Pilate is a chronological forgery, so in Paul’s time there was no Jesus, only a future (and obviously anonymous) Christ. Nestle-Aland gives eight ‘Jesus’ mentions in Paul's letters which it marks as ‘of doubtful authenticity’, (with the single brackets sign [ ]): Rom 8:34, 1Cor 4:17, 2Cor 4:6, Galatians 5:24, Ephesians 3:1, Philippians 3:12, Colossians 4:12, 2Thess 2:8. In my opinion this is the tip of the ‘Jesus forgery’ iceberg of the letters of Paul.

The following evidence points in the same direction:
• Paul doesn’t know anything whatsoever about Jesus’ life
• Numerous fragments in Paul’s letters on the coming of the Christ are future-directed (and not so in the sense of a ‘second coming’).
• There has been extensively tampered with the title (or ‘name’ as far as Jesus is concerned) of the protagonist, as if Paul became confused (or threw the dice) every time he had to write it down: Jesus – Christ – Jesus Christ – Christ Jesus – Lord Jesus – Lord Jesus Christ - our Lord Christ – our Lord Jesus – our Lord Jesus Christ - Jesus Christ our Lord - Christ Jesus our Lord.

In my opinion Paul was not confused at all, he used only two titles (no name, as mentioned above): ‘Christ’ and ‘Lord Christ’. Paul’s ideology can be reduced/recovered accordingly. This mishmash shows the contribution of later editors.
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The practical modes of concealment are limited only by the imaginative capacity of subordinates. James C. Scott, Domination and the Arts of Resistance.
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Re: Paul without Christ? Impossible!!

Post by DCHindley »

robert j wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:26 amWhat I asked for in the other thread was a bit more specific ---

David,
...
In the letters generally considered to be by Paul and addressed to his communities (1 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians and Philippians), what “Christ related segments (that) offered no coherent doctrine between letters” did you find ... ?

A couple of examples?
Hence the "I'll start with ... ." The problem for me is that it took me a very looong time to NOT think of Paul's letters as sacred scripture, but literature like any other. This is supposed to be a hallmark of the Historical-Critical method, but it is much easier said than done. However, what has stymied me the most is presenting it, with as yet unwritten commentary, in a fashion that is easy for a reader to scan and pick up the points being demonstrated. The older 1997/2003 versions that have two columns seems to be the best for this, but they are in English only. Now I have taken a course each in NT Greek and Classical Greek, but have forgotten as lot of it, although I have lexicons and grammars as well, and BibleWorks 8, which is better than nothing, but all this does is make me know just enough to be dangerous (ask Ben) :roll: .
robert j wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:26 am
robert j wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:25 pm... I'm just looking for a couple of examples of where you found “Christ related segments (that) offered no coherent doctrine between letters” from among the five letters I mentioned.
I’m curious about this because it seems to be one of the important factors that led you to remove all the mentions of a salvific Jesus Christ along with about 30% of the text in order to restore what you perceive to be a more coherent original text.

You wrote about what you found in the letters as we now have them ---
DCHindley wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:40 pmMost all of the materials that intervened between those snippets of Abraham theology, what I call "digressions" and "glosses," were Christ related segments but offered no coherent doctrine between letters, like it was still new and still rough around the edges.
I wouldn't deny that it was still new and rough around the edges. But for those 5 letters generally considered to be authentic and addressed to his communities, I’m asking for a couple of examples (or even one example) of “segments” between letters where the doctrines about Christ are incoherent and seemingly irreconcilable.

ETA I hope your head is feeling better
Now it's my bowels ... always something.

You had asked me not to get too detailed as you have limited time available, which makes things hard for me, as it is not just a place here and a place there, but the whole she-bang. However, I did not actually realize that it was Christ doctrine that seemed out of place to Paul's overall argumentative strategy until I reviewed my notes. Then I saw that there was a consistent message that gentiles could inherit the promises God had also made to Abraham's "seed" by adopting his faith, and Abrahamic faith. So, I may not be able to give you a succinct summary of five books like you requested.

I have simmered down Galatians into "Original" and "Interpolated," which will follow.
I can also do this with Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, and Philippians, although I will crop the summaries to only include this Abrahamic faith theology.

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Re: Paul without Christ? Impossible!!

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All right, here is the "Reader's Digest" condensed version of Galatians, given in full only because it pervades all 6 chapters.
"Original"

Perhaps Paul was not a master rhetorician, but who of us is? However, he wants to address some sort of infighting between churches or leaders of churches in Galatia, which appears to relate to attempts to persuade some of the Galatian faithful to convert fully to become Judean, by receiving full circumcision. Paul doesn't agree with this, and sketches out his Abrahamic faith dogma as he taught it to them in the beginning.

He explains that becoming a Judean physically would only be a burden to them in the long run as they would be required to practice the Mosaic law. It is fine and good, he thinks, for circumcised Judeans to make their best attempt to practice the Mosaic law, but gentiles should realize that the original promise was made after Abraham was justified in God's eyes for exercising faith that God would give him a son by his wife Sarah. Just as Abraham had previously started to doubt, and had a son by his concubine Hager, so had tripped up and had to recover by exercising faith. He asks them to get tough on the troublemakers and right their ship (OK, without the nautical terms).

This Abrahamic faith theology is actually worked out quite at length, the Christ dogma (including a quote from Mat 13:31 or Luk 13:21, but with the meaning of Mat 16:6,11; Mar 8:15; & Luk 12:1!) really adds nothing to the argument, in fact it digresses and says that the faith that gentiles should exhibit is *not* in the promise of inheriting a blessed age, but faith in Jesus Christ, who will come at the end of the age. Oil & water.

GAL 1:1a Paul, 1b [...], 2 and all the brethren who are with me, to the churches of Galatia:

3a Grace to you and peace 3b - 4a [...], 4b according to the will of our God and Father; 5 to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1:6a I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you so graciously 6b [...] 6c and turning to a different (sort of) good news, 7a not that there is another (sort of) good news, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the (actual) good news 7b [...]. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you good news contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a good news contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

10a Am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant 10b [...].

11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the good news which was preached by me is not man's good news. 12a For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation 12b [...].

13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it; 14 and I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who had set me apart before I was born, and had called me through his grace, 16a to reveal 16b [...] 16c to me that I might declare <his> 16e “good news” among the Gentiles, I did not confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia; and again I returned to Damascus.

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. 19a But I saw none of the other apostles except James 19b [...]. 20 (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!)

21 Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22a And I was still not known by sight to the churches 22b [...] 22c in Judea; 23 they only heard it said, "He who once persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy." 24 And they glorified God because of me.

2:1 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. 2 I went up by revelation; and I laid before them (but privately before those who were of repute) the good news which I preach among the Gentiles, lest somehow I should be running or had run in vain. 3 But even Titus, who was with me, was not compelled to be circumcised, though he was a Greek, 4a (in spite of false brethren secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom which we have 4b [...], 4c in order to bring us into bondage, 5 to whom we did not yield submission even for a moment, that the truth of the good news might be preserved for you).

6 And from those who were reputed to be something (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)--those, I say, who were of repute added nothing to me; 7a but on the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the good news to the uncircumcised, 7b - 8 [...], 9 and when they perceived the grace that was given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised; 10 only they would have us remember the Poor, which very thing I was eager to do.

[These three persons, Cephas, James & John, do not have to be the same as the Peter, James & John of the Gospels, as the names were very common. I think Paul was seeking permission of temple treasurers to get an acknowledgment that gentiles who followed Paul's theology would be welcomed into the blessed future age. They gave him authority to collect and transport donations from his communities - this is what later "apostles" did under the Judean patriarchs do - as a token of their commitment to their Judean "brothers" who were in need.]

11 But when Cephas came to Antioch I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And with him the rest of the Jews acted insincerely, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their insincerity.

14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the good news, I said to Cephas before them all, "If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?" 15 We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, 16a yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith 16b [...], 16c even we have believed 16d [...], 16e in order to be justified by faith 16f [...], 16g and not by works of the law, because by works of the law “shall no one be justified.” (Ps 143:2)

17a But if, in our endeavor to be justified 17b [...], 17c we ourselves were found to be sinners, are we
17d [...] 17e then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 -20 [...]; 21a I do not nullify the grace of God; 12b [...].

3:1a O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, 1b [...]? 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? 4 Did you experience so many things in vain?--if it really is in vain.

5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? 6 Thus Abraham "believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. (Gen 15:6)." 7 So you see that it is men of faith who are the sons of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the good news beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed." (Gen 12:3; compare to 18:18 and Sir 22:41) 9 So then, those who are men of faith are blessed with Abraham who had faith.

10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them." (Deut 27:26) 11 Now it is evident that no man is justified before God by the law; for "He who through faith is righteous shall live" (Hab 2:4); 12 but the law does not rest on faith, for "He who does them shall live by them," (Lev 18:5)

13 [...] 14a [with the result] that 14b [...] 14c the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles [through faith in the promise], 14d [...].

15 To give a human example, brethren: no one annuls even a man's will, or adds to it, once it has been ratified. 16a Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. 16b [...]. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came four hundred and thirty years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance is by the law, it is no longer by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

19 - 20a [...] 20b Now God is (of) one (mind). 21a Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! 21b For if a law had been given which could make alive, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22a But the scripture consigned all things to sin, that what was promised to faith 22b [...] 22c might be given to those who believe.

23 - 26 [...] 27a For as many of you as were baptized 27b [...] 28a there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one 28b [...]. 29a And if you are 29b [...] 29c really Abraham's offspring, (you are all) heirs according to promise.

4:1 - 2 [...]. 3 So with us; when we were children, we were slaves to the elementary things of the world. 4a But when the time had fully come, God sent forth 4b - 6a [...] 6b the Spirit 6c [...] 6d into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

7 [...]. 8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were in bondage to beings that by nature are no gods; 9 but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental things, whose slaves you want to be once more? 10 You observe days, and months, and seasons, and years! 11 I am afraid I have labored over you in vain.

12 Brethren, I beseech you, become as I am, for I also have become as you are. You did me no wrong; 13 you know it was because of a bodily ailment that I preached the good news to you at first; 14a and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, 14b [...]. 15 What has become of the satisfaction you felt? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth?

17 They make much of you, but for no good purpose; they want to shut you out, that you may make much of them. 18 For a good purpose it is always good to be made much of, and not only when I am present with you.

19a My little children, with whom I am again in travail 19b [...] 20 I could wish to be present with you now and to change my tone, for I am perplexed about you.

21 Tell me, you who desire to be under law, do you not hear the [book of the] law?

22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave and one by a free woman. (Gen 16:15) 23 But the son of the slave (Hagar) was born according to the flesh, the son of the free woman (Sarah) through promise. 24 - 26 28 Now we, brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29-31 [...].

5:1 [...] 2a Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, it 2b [...] 2c will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. 4a You are severed 4b [...], 4c you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. 6a [...] 6b Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you. 9 [...] 10 I have confidence in (the) LORD that you will take no other view than mine; and he who is troubling you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.

11a But if I, brethren, still preach circumcision [for gentiles with faith that God's promises to Abraham also include them, as I used to], 11b [...] 12 I wish those who unsettle you will cut themselves off!

13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love be servants of one another. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Lev 19:18) 15 But if you bite and devour one another take heed that you are not consumed by one another.

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law. 19 - 24 [...] 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

26 Let us have no self-conceit, no provoking of one another, no envy of one another.

6:1 - 10 [...] 11 See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand.

12a It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh that would compel you to be circumcised, 12b [...]. 13 For even those who receive circumcision do not themselves keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may glory in your flesh.

14a But far be it from me to glory 14b [...]. 15a For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, 15b [...]. 16 Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, even upon the Israel of God. 17 [...]

6:18a The grace 18b [...] 18c (be) with your spirit, brothers. Amen.

Interpolations:

There is a lot of one or two word phrases here, but also some more or less coherent message is being stated. My proposed editor/commentator had his own faith theology centered on faith that the death of Jesus was actually a divine entity Christ sacrificing himself to effect total reconciliation between God and mankind. He knew his Judean scriptures rather well (likely in Greek translation) so he had, at some point before, a long term affinity with Judaism, but now he is bitter. Since he goes on and on about how Judeans (in Judea) are actually Hager's children because they are now in captivity, pointing to a period after Titus captured Jerusalem. He has turned Paul's simple statement about how Hager and Sarah's situation differed, where Sarah's being better, completely upon its head, reversing the signifants. But the volume of these coherent messages are far less than the Abrahamic faith stuff. But ... " :evil: opinions vary."

GAL 1:1b an apostle, not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

3b from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ,

4a who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age

6b through Christ

7b (about) the Christ

10b of Christ

12b of Jesus Christ

16b his Son

19b the Lord's brother

22b of Christ

2:4b in Christ Jesus

7b just as Peter had been entrusted with the good news to the circumcised

8 for he who worked through Peter for the mission to the circumcised worked through me also for the Gentiles

16b in Jesus Christ

16d in Christ Jesus

16e in Christ

17b in Christ

17d is Christ

18 If I build up again those things which I tore down, then I prove myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law died to the law, that I might live to God.

20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me

21b for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose

3:1b before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree." (Deut 21:23)

14b in Christ Jesus

14d that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith

16b It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many; but, referring to one, "And to your offspring," (Gn 12:7 LXX; 22:17-18 LXX) is Christ

19 Why then the law? It was added to bring about transgressions, till the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made; and it was directed through angels by (the) hand of a mediator (i.e Moses).

20a But an intermediary implies more than one (party);

22b in Jesus Christ

23 Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed.
24a So that the law was our custodian that we might be justified by faith. 24b until Christ came 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith 27b into Christ have put on Christ

28b in Christ Jesus

29b Christ's, (you are)

4:1 I mean that the heir (kleronomos), as long as he is a child, is no better than a slave, though he is the owner of all the estate; 2 but he is under guardians and strewards (oikonomous) until the date set by the father 4b his Son, born (genomenon) of woman, born (genomenon) under the law (nomon), 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6a And because you are sons, God has sent 6c of his Son 7 So through God you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son then an heir (kleronomos) 14b as Christ Jesus 19b until Christ be formed in you

24 Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

27 For it is written, "Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and shout, you who are not in travail; for the children of the desolate one are many more than the children of her that is married." (Isa 54:1) 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now.

30 But what does the scripture say? "Cast out the slave and her son; for the son of the slave shall not inherit with the son of the free woman." (Gn 21:10) 31 So, brethren, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

5:2b Christ

4b from Christ

6a For in Christ Jesus

9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. [this one is colored grey and could go either way. I accepted it as "original" in the 2011 version, probably on the basis if my analyses of other books (kind of commonplace knowledge, and probably used metaphorically in all raised bread eating cultures).

11b why am I still persecuted? [this refers to vs 4:27 above]

11c In that case the stumbling block of the cross has been removed [I'm not sure what the redactor/commentator meant here ...] 19 Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. [this came across to me as saying "Them Judeans kilt our Lord! Now they just proved that they are really just a bunch of perverts and bottom dwellers! Now we gentiles, we don't have those problems. Our sh*t don't stink like theirs!" The hypothetical editor/commentator was clearly bitter - yes?]

6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Look to yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3 For if any one thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. 5 For each man will have to bear his own load.

6 Let him who is taught the word share all good things with him who teaches. 7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

9 And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart. 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of faith

12b and only in order that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ 14b except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world 15b but a new creation (does) 17 Henceforth let no man trouble me; for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus.

18b of our Lord Jesus Christ
But enough with this ... away with the atheists!

DCH
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DCHindley
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Re: Paul without Christ? Impossible!!

Post by DCHindley »

FransJVermeiren wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:17 pm
robert j wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:23 am
I wouldn't deny that it was still new and rough around the edges. But for those 5 letters generally considered to be authentic and addressed to his communities, I’m asking for a couple of examples (or even one example) of “segments” between letters where the doctrines about Christ are incoherent and seemingly irreconcilable.
I believe your request/remark is correct. ‘God and his Christ’ are the core of Paul’s gospel. Therefore in my opinion DCHindley’s elimination of all ‘Christ’ mentions from Galatians (and from all of Paul’s letters, I suppose) in the OP is not correct.

The problem with Paul is different: it is not ‘Christ’ but ‘Jesus’ who is alien to his letters. The activity of Jesus under Pontius Pilate is a chronological forgery, so in Paul’s time there was no Jesus, only a future (and obviously anonymous) Christ. Nestle-Aland gives eight ‘Jesus’ mentions in Paul's letters which it marks as ‘of doubtful authenticity’, (with the single brackets sign [ ]): Rom 8:34, 1Cor 4:17, 2Cor 4:6, Galatians 5:24, Ephesians 3:1, Philippians 3:12, Colossians 4:12, 2Thess 2:8. In my opinion this is the tip of the ‘Jesus forgery’ iceberg of the letters of Paul.

The following evidence points in the same direction:
• Paul doesn’t know anything whatsoever about Jesus’ life
• Numerous fragments in Paul’s letters on the coming of the Christ are future-directed (and not so in the sense of a ‘second coming’).
• There has been extensively tampered with the title (or ‘name’ as far as Jesus is concerned) of the protagonist, as if Paul became confused (or threw the dice) every time he had to write it down: Jesus – Christ – Jesus Christ – Christ Jesus – Lord Jesus – Lord Jesus Christ - our Lord Christ – our Lord Jesus – our Lord Jesus Christ - Jesus Christ our Lord - Christ Jesus our Lord.

In my opinion Paul was not confused at all, he used only two titles (no name, as mentioned above): ‘Christ’ and ‘Lord Christ’. Paul’s ideology can be reduced/recovered accordingly. This mishmash shows the contribution of later editors.
Naaaaahhh!

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Re: Paul without Christ? Impossible!!

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DCHindley wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:45 pm
All right, here is the "Reader's Digest" condensed version of Galatians ...
"Original"

GAL 1:1a Paul, 1b [...], 2 and all the brethren who are with me, to the churches of Galatia:

3a Grace to you and peace 3b - 4a [...], 4b according to the will of our God and Father; 5 to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen ...

[etc.,]
.
When do you, DCH, think this version existed or persisted until? pre-Marcion? through Marcionism?


When do you, not-Doug, think said editor/commentator inserted these deeper 'n' more-meaningful Interpolations?

Interpolations:

There is a lot of one or two word phrases here, but also some more or less coherent message is being stated. My proposed editor/commentator had his own faith theology centered on faith that the death of Jesus was actually a divine-entity-Christ sacrificing himself, to effect total reconciliation between God and mankind. He knew his Judean scriptures rather well (likely in Greek translation) so he had, at some point before, a long term affinity with Judaism, but now he is bitter. .....

GAL 1:1b an apostle, not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

3b from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ,

4a who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age

6b through Christ

7b (about) the Christ

10b of Christ

12b of Jesus Christ

[etc., ...]
.
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Re: Paul without Christ? Impossible!!

Post by DCHindley »

MrMacSon wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:35 pm
DCHindley wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:45 pm
All right, here is the "Reader's Digest" condensed version of Galatians ...
"Original"

GAL 1:1a Paul, 1b [...], 2 and all the brethren who are with me, to the churches of Galatia:

3a Grace to you and peace 3b - 4a [...], 4b according to the will of our God and Father; 5 to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen ...

[etc.,]
.
When do you, DCH, think this version existed or persisted until? pre-Marcion? through Marcionism?
What I think Marcion came across was the love language, and the Christ language, which appealed to him big time. Picking up on the divine redeemer language of the interpolator, Marcion, like Frans, thought that this Christ language *must* be what was at the core of Paul's letters. Marcion's pet peeve was that it had obviously been mixed with Judaic stuff (probably the original Judaic argumentation as well as any Christ language that betrayed too much of the editor/commentator's own affinity to Judaism (if only as something to bitterly vent against).

I seriously doubt that Marcion had wrote his own NT canon which was later Judaized. The argumentation clearly shows a Judaic core with a radicalized Christ myth tacked on as interpolations. No unknown God or saving of souls by a special mission of a lesser deity Jesus. Nor do I think that Marcion "cut down" an existing proto orthodox version.

What I -do- think is that Marcion wrote a commentary on the existing NT canon of his day (maybe it was the gospels of Matthew and Luke, with the letters of Paul to Churches, and the personal letter to Philemon, who knows), showing where he thought they had been "adultured" by Judaic additions, the same one he brought to the church at Rome insisting that the church look for and remove these adulterations.

The church leadership, though, was not buying it. The interpolated letters of Paul had been out since as early as 80 CE, so by Marcion's time (roughly 140-150 CE) sixty plus years had gone by (2-3 full generations in those days), so the church leadership may not have known the history of their own Pauline canon. They had "always" had them and the gospels pretty much as we have them now with a few more common variants. So they reject Marcion's proposal ignorant of the earlier revision of Pauline letters.

It was just after Marcion's time that someone like Polycarp of Smyrna in Asia Minor was publishing handy collections of books (the four gospel collection, the Pauline letters which now included not only letters to churches and to Philemon but also to individuals; Acts & the "General" epistles of James, Jude and John; and the book of Revelation). In Marcion's time, however, I don't think that what was circulating was quite as advanced as it was by Irenaeus' time (ca. 180 CE), when it was pretty much as we know it today. .
When do you, not-Doug, think said editor/commentator inserted these deeper 'n' more-meaningful Interpolations?
The "original" would be late 30s-early 60s (my lucky guess). The "interpolated" version as early as 10 years after Jerusalem was taken by Titus, so 80+ CE.

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Re: Paul without Christ? Impossible!!

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DCHindley wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:26 pm
When do you, DCH, think said editor/commentator inserted these deeper 'n' more-meaningful Interpolations [in Galatians]?
The "original" [Galatians] would be late 30s-early 60s (my lucky guess). The "interpolated" version as early as 10 years after Jerusalem was taken by Titus, so 80+ CE.

I didn't know this before I asked you (ie. it wasn't a trick question), but Robert M Price writes

.
Galatians
Numerous contradictions and anachronisms in Galatians imply that the work is multi-layered, having gone through the hands of various redactors, and that even the original nucleus was pseudepigraphical. Following van Manen, I take Marcion as the author, partly because of the striking comment of Tertullian in 'Against Marcion' that Marcion nactus epistolam Pauli ad Galatas: “Marcion has discovered Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians” (5.3.1).

... Marcion wrote the core of Galatians (chapters 3-6), and posed as [or merely proposed] Paul to an audience of early followers ... The first two chapters are later additions by Marcionites who wanted to counter the story of Paul in Acts, where Paul has been co-opted by Catholic Christianity.

Price, Robert M. The Amazing Colossal Apostle: The Search for the Historical Paul (Kindle Locations 8806-8821). Signature Books.

I'm not sure of either Tertullian's assertion that Marcion had 'discovered' Galatians or Price's interpretation that Tertullian meant Marcion had written Galatians.

Price much earlier had written -

Galatians seems to have been a Marcionite document overlaid with a corrective series of orthodox interpolations.
(The Amazing Colossal Apostle, Kindle Locations 857-858)

and

Somewhere between 100 and 150 CE, Paulinism as a theological system arose out of a mystical and speculative circle. Van Manen speaks of the Paulinist movement and Gnosticism arising from the same circles* ... Tertullian called Paul “the apostle of Marcion and the apostle of the heretics,” and both Irenaeus and Tertullian noted how much 'the heretics' cherished Paul’s writings. The first commentators on the epistles were the Gnostics Valentinus1, Heracleon?, and Basilides2 [c. 100 - c. 139 e.v.].

Price, The Amazing Colossal Apostle: The Search for the Historical Paul (Kindle Locations 937-942).

* Our knowledge and conceptualisation of Gnosticism is greater than van Manen's time.

1 Theudas is said to have imparted to Valentinus the secret wisdom that Paul had taught privately to his inner circle, including his visionary encounter with the risen Christ (we may only 'know' that from Clement of Alexandria Stromateis bk 7, chap 27).

2 Basilides is supposed to have been vested with secret revelations from Paul through his “interpreter” named Glaucius; by others from the disciple Matthias; by others from the now unknown and possibly fictitious prophets Barcoph and Barcabbas (He also wrote 24 commentaries on 'the Gospels', called Exegetica; there are fragments) https://hermetic.com/sabazius/basilides


DCHindley wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:26 pm I seriously doubt that Marcion wrote his own NT canon which was later Judaized.
It's unlikely Marcion wrote a canon, though some think he wrote proto-Luke and may have written or used either Mark or Matthew (or proto- versions of them).

And Justin Martyr's writings suggest Martyr did not know the synoptic gospels as we know them (and he may not have even know proto- versions of the synoptics), which makes the claims there were core NT texts in the early 2nd century spurious -

Marcion had as yet no Gospel text, though soon his followers would join in the broader process of composing Jesus stories and sayings. Marcion cannot have written all the letters ascribed to Paul, since some are Gnostic, not Marcionite, and others like Galatians 1-2 supplement his own and threaten to obscure the originals. As the old heresiologists averred, I think Marcion may have been Simon’s disciple, at least a Simonian if Marcion was not himself a companion of the Magus. The Pauline epistles began, most of them, as fragments by Simon (part of Romans), Marcion (the third through sixth chapters of Galatians and the basic draft of Ephesians), and Valentinian Gnostics (Colossians, parts of 1 Corinthians, at least). Some few began as Catholic documents, while nearly all were interpolated by Polycarp, the ecclesiastical redactor who domesticated John (as Bultmann saw it), Luke (as per John Knox), and 1 Peter, then composed Titus and 2 Timothy. The result is that in the end we stand, almost uncomprehendingly, before a pile of literary scraps.

Price, Robert M. The Amazing Colossal Apostle: The Search for the Historical Paul (Kindle Locations 11693-11701). Signature Books.


Tertullian saying

“Marcion, discovering the Epistle of Paul to the Galatians [and used it to] destroy the character of these Gospels which are published as genuine and under the names of the apostles” (Adv. Marc. 4.3.1).

suggests he [Tertuallian] might have been rewriting and laying down history, rather than accurately recording it.
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