Paul without Christ? Impossible!!

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Paul without Christ? Impossible!!

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MrMacSon wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:45 amI didn't know this before I asked you (ie. it wasn't a trick question), but Robert M Price writes

.
Galatians
Numerous contradictions and anachronisms in Galatians imply that the work is multi-layered, having gone through the hands of various redactors, and that even the original nucleus was pseudepigraphical. Following van Manen, I take Marcion as the author, partly because of the striking comment of Tertullian in 'Against Marcion' that Marcion nactus epistolam Pauli ad Galatas: “Marcion has discovered Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians” (5.3.1).

... Marcion wrote the core of Galatians (chapters 3-6), and posed as [or merely proposed] Paul to an audience of early followers ... The first two chapters are later additions by Marcionites who wanted to counter the story of Paul in Acts, where Paul has been co-opted by Catholic Christianity.

Price, Robert M. The Amazing Colossal Apostle: The Search for the Historical Paul (Kindle Locations 8806-8821). Signature Books.

I'm not sure of either Tertullian's assertion that Marcion had 'discovered' Galatians or Price's interpretation that Tertullian meant Marcion had written Galatians.
I think the reference must be incorrect. It is actually Against Marcion 4.3.2: "Well, but Marcion, finding (nactus) the epistle of Paul to the Galatians (wherein he rebukes even apostles for not walking uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, as well as accuses certain false apostles of perverting the gospel of Christ), labors very hard to destroy the character of those gospels which are published as genuine and under the name of apostles, in order, forsooth, to secure for his own gospel the credit which he takes away from them."
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Re: Paul without Christ? Impossible!!

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DCHindley wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:30 pm
Now it's my bowels ... always something.
Yeah. It’s always something.
DCHindley wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:30 pm
... I may not be able to give you a succinct summary of five books like you requested.
My apologies if my writing wasn't adequately clear. I didn't request that, or at least I didn't intend to.
DCHindley wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:45 pm All right, here is the "Reader's Digest" condensed version of Galatians, given in full only because it pervades all 6 chapters.

This Abrahamic faith theology is actually worked out quite at length, the Christ dogma (including a quote from Mat 13:31 or Luk 13:21, but with the meaning of Mat 16:6,11; Mar 8:15; & Luk 12:1!) really adds nothing to the argument, in fact it digresses and says that the faith that gentiles should exhibit is *not* in the promise of inheriting a blessed age, but faith in Jesus Christ, who will come at the end of the age. Oil & water.

DCH
OK, here's a response to my question. Well, not quite --- I asked for one or two examples to illustrate your statement that there are incoherent Christ-related doctrine between different letters. But this is fine, it works for me.

The question then is this --- In Galatians, are the Abrahamic arguments inconsistent with the Christ-related arguments?
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Re: Paul without Christ? Impossible!!

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:30 am
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:45 am ... Robert M Price writes

[chapter] 12. Galatians
Numerous contradictions and anachronisms in Galatians imply that the work is multi-layered, having gone through the hands of various redactors, and that even the original nucleus was pseudepigraphical. Following van Manen, I take Marcion as the author, partly because of the striking comment of Tertullian in 'Against Marcion' that Marcion nactus epistolam Pauli ad Galatas: “Marcion has discovered Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians” (5.3.1).

... Marcion wrote the core of Galatians (chapters 3-6), and posed as [or merely proposed] Paul to an audience of early followers ... The first two chapters are later additions by Marcionites who wanted to counter the story of Paul in Acts, where Paul has been co-opted by Catholic Christianity.

Price, Robert M. The Amazing Colossal Apostle: The Search for the Historical Paul (Kindle Locations 8806-8821). Signature Books.

I'm not sure of either Tertullian's assertion that Marcion had 'discovered' Galatians or Price's interpretation that Tertullian meant Marcion had written Galatians.
I think the reference must be incorrect. It is actually Against Marcion 4.3.2: "Well, but Marcion, finding (nactus) the epistle of Paul to the Galatians (wherein he rebukes even apostles for not walking uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, as well as accuses certain false apostles of perverting the gospel of Christ), labors very hard to destroy the character of those gospels which are published as genuine and under the name of apostles, in order, forsooth, to secure for his own gospel the credit which he takes away from them."
Cheers Ben.

I hadn't intended to post so much from Price in reply to DCH and got caught up trying to discern Price on Galatians, whcih is a little hard b/c Price is both a bit colloquial and poetically rhetorical.

Tertullian's Adv Marcion Bk V chapter 3 argues against Marcion, The Catholic Encyplopedia having [sub-] titled it
  • "St. Paul Quite in Accordance with St. Peter and Other Apostles of the Circumcision. His Censure of St. Peter Explained, and Rescued from Marcion's Misapplication. The Strong Protests of This Epistle Against Judaizers. Yet Its Teaching is Shown to Be in Keeping with the Law and the Prophets. Marcion's Tampering with St. Paul's Writings Censured."

Adv Marcion Bk V chapter 2 contains
The epistle which we also allow to be the most decisive against Judaism, is that wherein the apostle instructs the Galatians. For the abolition of the ancient law we fully admit, and hold that it actually proceeds from the dispensation of the Creator .. the apostle cannot of course do otherwise, (coming as he does) in Christ, who was revealed after John1, than invalidate the "old things" and confirm "the new", and yet promote thereby the faith of no other god than the Creator, at whose instance it was foretold that the ancient things should pass away. Therefore both the abrogation of the law and the establishment of the gospel help my argument2 even in this epistle, wherein they both have reference to the fond assumption of the Galatians, which led them to suppose that faith in Christ (the Creator's Christ, of course) was obligatory, but without annulling the law, because it still appeared to them a thing incredible that the law should be set aside by its own author ... http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03125.htm
  1. ''Christ who was ''revealed' after John'' is interesting.
  2. Tertullian saying 'my argument' is interesting - Tertullian seems to be positioning himself as a shaper of doctrine; which he was, but I had the impression that was a thing that later commentators had done retrospectively.

Adv Marcion Bk V chapter 2 goes on, aligning and framing Galatian passages with passages from Isaiah -
... the entire purport of this epistle is simply to show us that the supersession of the law comes from the appointment of the Creator — a point, which we shall still have to keep in mind. Since also he makes mention of no other god (and he could have found no other opportunity of doing so, more suitable than when his purpose was to set forth the reason for the abolition of the law — especially as the prescription of a new god would have afforded a singularly good and most sufficient reason), it is clear enough in what sense he writes, "I marvel that you are so soon removed from Him who has called you to His grace to another gospel" Galatians 1:6-7 — He means "another" as to the conduct it prescribes, not in respect of its worship; "another" as to the discipline it teaches, not in respect of its divinity; because it is the office of Christ's gospel to call men from the law to grace, not from the Creator to another god. For nobody had induced them to apostatize from the Creator, that they should seem to "be removed to another gospel", simply when they return again to the Creator.

When he adds, too, the words, "which is not another", Galatians 1:7 he confirms the fact that the gospel which he maintains is the Creator's. For the Creator Himself promises the gospel, when He says by Isaiah: "Get you up into the high mountain, you that brings to Sion good tidings; lift up your voice with strength, you that brings the gospel to Jerusalem".

Also when, with respect to the apostles personally, He says, "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, that bring good tidings of good" Isaiah 52:7 — even proclaiming the gospel to the Gentiles, because He also says, "In His name shall the Gentiles trust"; that is, in the name of Christ, to whom He says, "I have given you as a light of the Gentiles" ...

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03125.htm
Then some angelology -
Adv Marcion Bk V chap. 2

... But perhaps, to avoid this difficulty, you will say that he therefore added just afterwards, "Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel, let him be accursed", Galatians 1:8 because he was aware that the Creator was going to introduce a gospel! But you thus entangle yourself still more. For this is now the mesh in which you are caught. To affirm that there are two gospels, is not the part of a man who has already denied that there is another. His meaning, however, is clear, for he has mentioned himself first (in the anathema): "But though we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel". Galatians 1:8 It is by way of an example that he has expressed himself. If even he himself might not preach any other gospel, then neither might an angel. He said "angel" in this way, that he might show how much more men ought not to be believed, when neither an angel nor an apostle ought to be; not that he meant to apply an angel to the gospel of the Creator. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03125.htm
Then confirming Acts agree with Paul, and suggests that Marcion rejected it/them -
Adv Marcion V, chap. 2
He then cursorily touches on his own conversion from a persecutor to an apostle — confirming thereby the Acts of the Apostles, in which book may be found the very subject of this epistle, how that certain persons interposed, and said that men ought to be circumcised, and that the law of Moses was to be observed; and how the apostles, when consulted, determined, by the authority of the Holy Ghost, that "a yoke should not be put upon men's necks which their fathers even had not been able to bear." Now, since the Acts of the Apostles thus agree with Paul, it becomes apparent why you reject them. It is because they declare no other God than the Creator, and prove Christ to belong to no other God than the Creator; while the promise of the Holy Ghost is shown to have been fulfilled in no other document than the Acts of the Apostles.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03125.htm
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Re: Paul without Christ? Impossible!!

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robert j wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:18 amThe question then is this --- In Galatians, are the Abrahamic arguments inconsistent with the Christ-related arguments?
I really did at first want to get the two perspectives to "mesh," but in the end I couldn't get them to work together.

That being said, the critic who I think has come closest to doing so is/was Mark D Nanos. Starting in the late 1990s he put out a number of thought provoking books like The Irony of Galatians: Paul's letter in first-century context (2001) and The Mystery of Romans: the Jewish context of Paul's letter (1996). He was also a co-editor of The Galatians Debate: contemporary issues in rhetorical and historical interpretation (2002).

Mark is a little like Stephen Carlson, successful in a profession (advertising for Nanos, patent law for Stephen) and then put selves through graduate school to get bona-fide degrees in Bible and/or criticism, but from the opposite side of the spectrum. Nanos is Jewish (I think Reform) and not a Christian, Carlson is an Evangelical Christian and by default not Jewish.

Nanos takes the route of rhetorical criticism to understand Paul. He has an online presence, CV and all, at:
http://www.marknanos.com/resume.html .
I may be misinterpreting him, but be builds a rhetorical analytical theory in which Paul, a talented, though conflicted, new thinker in the arena of Christian development, was attempting to use obscure rhetorical devices to shock his readers/hearers into realizing that a crucified Christ was a fulfillment of God's plan for universal salvation in which Judeans played a valid and vital part. Paul was an observant Judean of the Diaspora, and never ceased being so.

WRT your interest in Philippians as a "Genuine" Pauline letter, there is his most recent book, Reading Corinthians and Philippians within Judaism: collected essays of Mark D. Nanos (vol 1, 2017; vol 2, 2018).

His heyday, though, was just before the Marcion hypothesis became popular. He does not seem interested in engaging that animal. I suppose if you had specific questions related to his hypotheses, he might be interested in participating in polite discussions here. :thumbup:

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Re: Paul without Christ? Impossible!!

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As I was compiling a sample of Paul vs Editor/Commentator comparisons from Romans, I realized that I had an unresolved conflict between Romans & Galatians in the phrase "Abba, Father." In the Galatians comparison I recently posted, I thought this (4:6d) was genuine, but in Romans 8:15 it is lodged deep in the middle of Christ theology. This probably belongs in the Christ theology category. "Abba" is an Aramaic word meaning "father," which I think is more at home in the environment from which Jesus first attracted gentiles to his movement. This was southern Syria and the Judean, Samaritan, Batanean and Idumean regions below it, where much of the population spoke Aramaic as their primary language. This would be the smaller towns and villages, which had their literate scribes and civic leaders. The bigger towns and cities were thoroughly Hellenized, and Greek was the primary language. Paul thrived in the cities around the eastern Mediterranean, and probably spoke Greek as his primary language, although he could have also spoken or understood some Hebrew or Aramaic as used in towns/villages in Southern Syria and Asia Minor. He spent a lot of time in Damascus in S. Syria and "Arabia" (Nabatea?).

Anyhow, I present some samples from Romans, warts and all (although 8:15 is not included), just to throw something out for discussion.
"Original:"

Here's the Abrahamic faith theology in Romans:

4:1 What then shall we say about Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2a For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, 2b [...]. 3 For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." (Gen 15:6)

4 Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. 5 And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the unGodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.

6 So also David pronounces a blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom (the) LORD will not reckon his sin." (Ps 32:1-2)

9 Is this blessing pronounced only upon the circumcised, or also upon the uncircumcised? We say that faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness. (Gen 15:6) 10 How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.

11 He received circumcision as a sign or seal of the righteousness which he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them, 12 and likewise the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but also follow the example of the faith which our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

13 The promise to Abraham and his descendants, that they should inherit the world, did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 If it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.

15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants--not only to the adherents of the law but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, for he is the father of us all,

17a as it is written, "I have made you the father of many nations" (Gen 17:5) 17b [...]. 18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations; as he had been told, "So shall your descendants be." (Gen 15:5) 19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead because he was about a hundred years old, or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. 20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22 That is why his faith was "reckoned to him as righteousness." (Gen 15:6) 23 - 25 [...].

5:1a Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God 1b [...]. 2 Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God. 3 - 5a [...], 5b because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us. 6 - 7 [...].

8a But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners 8b [...] 9a therefore, we are now much more justified 9b we shall [still] be saved 9c [...] 9d from the wrath (of God).

10a For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God 10b [...], 10c much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved 10d [...].

9:1a [To you gentile god-fearers] I am speaking the truth 1b [...], 1c I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3a For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off 3b [...] 3c for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race.

4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; 5a to them belong the patriarchs, 5b [...]. 6 But it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but "Through Isaac shall your descendants be named." (Gen 21:12) 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are reckoned as descendants. 9 For this is what the promise said, "About this time I will return and Sarah shall have a son." (Gen 18:10,14)

10 And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call, 12 she was told, "The elder will serve the younger." (Gen 25:23) 13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (Mal 1:2-3)

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (Ex 33:19) 16 [...]. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?" (Is 29:16; 45:9; Wsd 12:12) 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, (Jr 18:6) to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? (Wsd 15:7)

22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

25 As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'my beloved.'" (Ho 2:23) 26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'" (Ho 1:10)

27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved; 28 for the LORD will execute his sentence upon the earth with rigor and dispatch." (Is 10:22-23; Ho 1:10)

29 And as Isaiah predicted, "If the LORD of hosts had not left us children, we would have fared like Sodom and been made like Gomorrah." (Is 1:9) 30 [...].

Interpolations:

There is little to work with here, although in other places quite a lot of Christ theology abounds in lengthy digressions. These deal mainly with Sin and Christ's role as a sin-eater (characters in an old Twilight Zone episode, sorry). He has a theory of God's purpose for Mosaic Law. My proposed editor/commentator had some interests that overlapped with Paul's own, and he sometimes waxes philosophic over how Paul had got the rest all wrong.

2b but not before God

17b --in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist

23 But the words, "it was reckoned to him," were written not for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be reckoned to us who believe in him that raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification

5:1b through our Lord Jesus Christ

3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5a and hope does not disappoint us

6 While we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the unGodly. 7 Why, one will hardly die for a righteous man--though perhaps for a good man one will dare even to die 8b Christ died for us,

9b by his blood, and 9c by him 10b by the death of his Son 10d by his life

9:1b in Christ

3b from Christ

5b and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is over all, "blessed" by God "for ever, Amen" (adapting Ps 41:13).

16 So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy

30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued the righteousness which is based on law did not succeed in fulfilling that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it through faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make men stumble, a rock that will make them fall; and he who believes in him will not be put to shame." (Is 28:16)
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Re: Paul without Christ? Impossible!!

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DCHindley wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:55 pm
robert j wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:18 amThe question then is this --- In Galatians, are the Abrahamic arguments inconsistent with the Christ-related arguments?
I really did at first want to get the two perspectives to "mesh," but in the end I couldn't get them to work together.

That being said, the critic who I think has come closest to doing so is/was Mark D Nanos. Starting in the late 1990s he put out a number of thought provoking books like The Irony of Galatians: Paul's letter in first-century context (2001) and The Mystery of Romans: the Jewish context of Paul's letter (1996). He was also a co-editor of The Galatians Debate: contemporary issues in rhetorical and historical interpretation (2002).

Mark is a little like Stephen Carlson, successful in a profession (advertising for Nanos, patent law for Stephen) and then put selves through graduate school to get bona-fide degrees in Bible and/or criticism, but from the opposite side of the spectrum. Nanos is Jewish (I think Reform) and not a Christian, Carlson is an Evangelical Christian and by default not Jewish.

Nanos takes the route of rhetorical criticism to understand Paul. He has an online presence, CV and all, at:
http://www.marknanos.com/resume.html .
I may be misinterpreting him, but be builds a rhetorical analytical theory in which Paul, a talented, though conflicted, new thinker in the arena of Christian development, was attempting to use obscure rhetorical devices to shock his readers/hearers into realizing that a crucified Christ was a fulfillment of God's plan for universal salvation in which Judeans played a valid and vital part. Paul was an observant Judean of the Diaspora, and never ceased being so.

WRT your interest in Philippians as a "Genuine" Pauline letter, there is his most recent book, Reading Corinthians and Philippians within Judaism: collected essays of Mark D. Nanos (vol 1, 2017; vol 2, 2018).

His heyday, though, was just before the Marcion hypothesis became popular. He does not seem interested in engaging that animal. I suppose if you had specific questions related to his hypotheses, he might be interested in participating in polite discussions here. :thumbup:
Mark Nanos takes things in the direction of the New Perspective on Paul. I was first exposed to this perspective by Stanley K. Stowers' book, A Rereading of Romans. N. T. Wright is another proponent of the same overall approach, and there are rather many others. I have found that the New Perspective answers most of the most pressing questions of Pauline coherence, which does not, however, mean that it is necessarily correct. (Providing a viable reconstruction of Pauline thought falls just short of proving that this is what Paul actually thought.) The approach is holistic, for the most part, and it both ignores most partition theories (including those involving Marcion) and emphasizes Jewish precedents over gentile precedents. IMHO, it is well worth engaging with, whether it is, in the end, correct or not.
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Re: Paul without Christ? Impossible!!

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I decided to skip 1 & 2 Corinthians due to their sheer size (Romans was bad enough), and go right to Philippians. Since it is even shorter than Galatians, my "Reader's Digest" version is given here in full:
"Original"

[The man who wrote this would seem to be having legal difficulties arising from opposition to his platform of gentile inclusion. Judeans were subject to Judean operated courts in various cities and towns, and he appears to have been condemned to death by such a court for breaking, in their view, the law of Moses. He of course disagrees with this, and assuming that he did have some level of Roman citizenship he made an appeal to the emperor, to which he was entitled according to Roman law. Now that he was in Rome, he just had to wait for the emperor to get around to hearing appeals.

I guess he was not sure whether he could expect protection from the emperor, or execution for transgressing Judean law, meaning the emperor was a one-man supreme court. There appear to be other apostles running about advocating inclusion of gentiles, some of whom Paul disagreed with on points, but some of them he felt had good intentions. At this point, unlike at the beginning, others were entering the officially licensed financial apostle business.

He speaks a lot about faith, but never outlines in this letter the Abrahamic faith, perhaps because they already knew it and there was no competition to it in Philippi.]

PHI 1:1a Paul and Timothy, 1b [...], 1c To all the saints 1d [...] 1e who are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

2a Grace to you and peace from God our Father 2b [...].

1:3 I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, 4 always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy, 5 thankful for your partnership in the good news from the first day until now. 6a And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion 6b [...]. 7 It is right for me to feel thus about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the good news.

8a For God is my witness, how I yearn for you all with the affection 8b [...]. 9 And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, 10a so that you may approve what is excellent, and may be pure and blameless 10b [...], 11a filled with the fruits of righteousness which come[s] 11b [...].

12 I want you to know, brethren, that what has happened to me has really served to advance the good news, 13 since my bonds (made me) manifest throughout the whole praetorian guard and to all the rest; 14 and most of the brethren in (the) LORD have been made confident because of my bonds, and are much more bold to speak the word of God without fear. 15a Some indeed preach 15b [...] 15c from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. 16 The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the good news; 17a the former proclaim 17b [...] 17c out of partisanship, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment.

18a What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, (i.e., the “good news”) 18b [...]
18c is proclaimed; and in that I rejoice. 19a Yes, and I shall rejoice. For I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit 19b [...] 19c this will turn out for my deliverance, 20a as it is my eager expectation and hope that I shall not be at all ashamed 20b [...], 20c whether by life or by death.

21 [...] 22 If it is to be life in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. 23a I am hard pressed between two (things):

23b My desire is to depart 23c [...], 23d for that is far better. 24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. 25 Convinced of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, 26a so that in me you may have ample cause to glory 26b [...], 26c because of my coming to you again.

27a Only let your manner of life be worthy of the good news 27b [...], 27c so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the good news, 28a and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear omen to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, 28b [...]

29a For it has been granted to you 29b [...] 30 to have the very same conflict which you saw and now hear to be mine.

2:1a So if there is any encouragement 1b [...], 1c any incentive of love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. 3 Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

5 - 11 [...] 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 [...] 14 Do all things without grumbling or questioning, 15 - 16a [...] 16b so that 16c [...] 16d I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. 17 Even if I am to be poured as a libation upon the sacrificial offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. 18 Likewise you also should be glad and rejoice with me.

19a I hope in (the) LORD 19b [...] 19c to send Timothy to you soon, so that I may be cheered by news of you. 20 I have no one like him, who will be genuinely anxious for your welfare. 21 [...] 22 But Timothy's worth you know, how as a son with a Father he has served with me in the good news. 23 I hope therefore to send him just as soon as I see how it will go with me; 24 and I trust in (the) LORD that shortly I myself shall come also.

25 I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your apostle and minister to my need, 26 for he has been longing for you all, and has been distressed because you heard that he was ill. 27 Indeed he was ill, near to death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. 28 I am the more eager to send him, therefore, that you may rejoice at seeing him again, and that I may be less anxious. 29 So receive him in (the) LORD with all joy; and honor such men, 30 for he nearly died for the work of (the) <LORD> (Aleph, A, P, Psi), risking his life to complete your service to me.

3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in (the) LORD. To write the same things to you is not irksome to me, and is safe for you. 2 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evil-workers, look out for those who cut down. 3 [...]

4 Though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If any other man thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law a Pharisee, 6 as to zeal a persecutor of the church, as to righteousness under the law blameless. 7a But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss
7b [...]. 8a Indeed I count everything as loss 8b [...], 8c and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain 8d [...] 9a and be found 9b [...], 9c not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith. 9d [...] 9e - 11 [...] 12a Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own 12b [...].

13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14a I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God 14b [...]. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

17 Brethren, join in imitating me, and mark those who so live as you have an example in us. 18a For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, live as enemies
18b [...]. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is the belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. 20a But our citizenship is in (the) heavens, 20b - 21 [...].

4:1 Therefore, my brethren, whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, stand firm thus in (the) LORD, my beloved.

2 I entreat Euodia and I entreat Syntyche to agree in (the) LORD. 3 And I ask you also, true yokefellow, help these women, for they have labored side by side with me in the good news together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

4 Rejoice in (the) LORD always; again I will say, Rejoice.

5a Let all men know your forbearance. 5b [...]. 6 Have no anxiety about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. 7a And the peace of God, which passes all understanding, will keep your hearts and your minds 7b [...].

8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. 9 What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do; and the God of peace will be with you.

10 I rejoice in (the) LORD greatly that now at length you have revived your concern for me; you were indeed concerned for me, but you had no opportunity. 11 Not that I complain of want; for I have learned, in whatever state I am, to be content. 12 I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound; in any and all circumstances I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and want. 13 I can do all things in him who strengthens me. 14 Yet it was kind of you to share my trouble.

15 And you Philippians yourselves know that in the beginning of the good news, when I left Macedonia, no church entered into partnership with me in giving and receiving except you only; 16 for even in Thessalonica you sent me help once and again. 17 Not that I seek the gift; but I seek the fruit which increases to your credit. 18 I have received full payment, and more; I am filled, having received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent, a fragrant offering, a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God.

19a And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory 19b [...].

20 To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

4:21a Greet every saint 21b [...]. 21c The brothers who are with me greet you. 22 All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar's household.

23a The grace [of God] 23b [...] 23c (be) with your spirit.

Interpolations:

[there are only a few coherent segments, which as usual I strung together if sustained meaning can be made of them. There is a segment starting at 2:5 that talks of the highly exalted Christ as he fits into God's big plan. At 3:9e there is talk about faith in Christ's resurrection. At 3:20b there is talk about the end of the age. Other than that, there's the usual one or two words intended to redirect the meaning of "original" Paul.]

PHI 1:1b servants of Christ Jesus

1d in Christ Jesus

2b and the Lord Jesus Christ

6b at the day of Jesus Christ

8b of Christ Jesus

10b for the day of Christ

11b through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God

15b Christ

17b Christ

18b Christ

19b Jesus Christ

20b but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

23c and be with Christ

26b in Christ Jesus

27b of Christ

28b and that from God.

29b that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

2:1b in Christ

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus “every knee should bow,” in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 “and every tongue confess” (Is 45:23) that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure 15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16a holding fast the word of life 16c in the day of Christ ... 19b Jesus

21 They all look after their own interests, not those of Jesus Christ

30 <Christ> (papyrus 46, B, G)

3:3 For we are the true circumcision, who worship God in spirit, and glory in Christ Jesus, and put no confidence in the flesh

7b for the sake of Christ 8b because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things

8d Christ

9b in him

9d in Christ

9e The righteousness from God that depends on faith; 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead 12b because Christ Jesus has made me his own

14b in Christ Jesus

18b of the cross of Christ

20b and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself

4:5b The Lord is at hand

7b in Christ Jesus

19b in Christ Jesus

21b in Christ Jesus

23b of the Lord Jesus Christ
FJVermeiren
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Re: Paul without Christ? Impossible!!

Post by FJVermeiren »

MrMacSon wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:35 pm
DCHindley wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:45 pm
All right, here is the "Reader's Digest" condensed version of Galatians ...
"Original"

GAL 1:1a Paul, 1b [...], 2 and all the brethren who are with me, to the churches of Galatia:

3a Grace to you and peace 3b - 4a [...], 4b according to the will of our God and Father; 5 to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen ...

[etc.,]
.
When do you, DCH, think this version existed or persisted until? pre-Marcion? through Marcionism?


When do you, not-Doug, think said editor/commentator inserted these deeper 'n' more-meaningful Interpolations?

Interpolations:

There is a lot of one or two word phrases here, but also some more or less coherent message is being stated. My proposed editor/commentator had his own faith theology centered on faith that the death of Jesus was actually a divine-entity-Christ sacrificing himself, to effect total reconciliation between God and mankind. He knew his Judean scriptures rather well (likely in Greek translation) so he had, at some point before, a long term affinity with Judaism, but now he is bitter. .....

GAL 1:1b an apostle, not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

3b from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ,

4a who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age

6b through Christ

7b (about) the Christ

10b of Christ

12b of Jesus Christ

[etc., ...]
.
Below my view on the first verses of Galatians ‘without Jesus’, as a small counterweight to DCHindley’s ‘Paul without Christ’. One of the elements in the discussion is my chronological theory that Jesus was active during the war against the Romans.

-------------------Original--------------------- ----------Redaction/Interpolation---------- ------------------------Comment----------------------------
(1) Paul an apostle not from men nor
through a man, but through
The ἀνθρώπος part is genuine not only because this
element is elaborated further on in chapter 1 (verse 10 and 11),
but also because it is part of Paul’s anti-Roman ideology.
The ἀνθρώπος is the Roman emperor, the opponent of
the Christ (who can be considered to be the Jewish anti-emperor).
I would translate ‘for the sake of’ instead of ‘through’,
which more clearly shows the emperor and the Christ
as opponents. The tenor is clear from the beginning.
Jesus Crucifixion and survival in 70 CE
Christ
and God the Father, who raised him from the dead Paul’s sequence is always (1) God (2) the Christ,
so the other way around is an interpolation of the ‘Father’ phrase.
‘Who raised him from the dead’ refers to Jesus:
chronologically impossible (post-70).
(2) And all the brethren who are with me,
To the churches of Galatia:
(3) Grace to you and peace from God our Father
and the Lord
Pauline sequence (1) God (2) Christ
Jesus Crucifixion and survival in 70 CE
Christ
(4) Who gave himself for our sins to
deliver us from the present evil age,
according to the will of our God and Father
Verse 4 is unclear. The ‘present evil age’
is Pauline thought, but the first part is not.
Maybe this verse has been reworked more complexly.
(5) to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen. This doxology is un-Pauline. Cf. Romans 16:27.

www.waroriginsofchristianity.com

The practical modes of concealment are limited only by the imaginative capacity of subordinates.
James C. Scott, Domination and the Arts of Resistance p. 139
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