I am posting this here just to document some of the absurdity of this thread for future reference. I have noticed and am preserving for posterity, John T, that you have indulged in hubris, moved the goalposts, and been deceptive in your dealings on this topic.
1. Indulging in hubris.
Once Ƿ
45 came up as the earliest manuscript attesting to the context around Acts 8.37, you asked for a link to the relevant page of the papyrus. Andrew Criddle kindly obliged. You
responded:
John T wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:28 amThanks for the link but I can't translate P45 due to it being badly damage. I tried looking for the word 'eunuch'(
eunouchos #2135) as a reference point but I can't locate it.
http://csntm.org/Manuscript/View/GA_P45
The Greek word for "eunuch" actually appears twice in part on this page and once nearly in full (only the final letter is challenging):
- Eunuch (P45).png (427.11 KiB) Viewed 9568 times
If
this word was hard to find on this page of Ƿ
45, then obviously the seeker has little or no facility with manuscript Greek. Now, this is no sin in and of itself; but it contrasts sharply with your arrogant pronouncements
elsewhere in the thread:
John T wrote: ↑Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:52 pmLet it go Ulan, it is simply out of your league both in linguistics and mathematics.
And hubris
is a sin.
2. Moving goalposts.
After I
showed conclusively that Acts 8.37 would not fit in the column of text on this page of the manuscript, you accused me of
playing a prank:
John T wrote: ↑Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:19 pmActually, Ben was pulling your leg with his long-hand rendition.
John T wrote: ↑Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:46 amIf Ben wanted to, he could make Acts 8:37 fit naturally in between
baptisthenai and
kai by
inserting the beginning of the sentence after the last half of line one and the remainder at the beginning of line two. All without distorting the spatial relationship with the other red words.
But instead, Ben pulled your leg by placing all of Acts 8:37 after the word
baptisthenai to make the line look ridiculous long and of course, you fell for it.
I still went ahead and
gave three different ways of arranging the text with Acts 8.37 in it, including the insertion of "the beginning of the sentence after the last half" of the one line and the insertion of "the remainder at the beginning" of the next line (option #4 on the linked page, just as you suggested), and none of the three looked even remotely close to a real column of text. I
also pointed out that the other verses in context show up on two lines (each) of the column of text while verse 37 does not show up at all, despite it being of commensurate length with the other verses.
Your
response was to suggest that my rendition of the verse was too long:
John T wrote: ↑Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:21 am....
37: ΕΙΠΕΔΕΟΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΕΙΠΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΣΕΞΟΛΗΣΤΗΣΚΑΡΔΙΑΣΕΞΕΣΤΙΝΑΠΟΚΡΙΘΕΙΣΔΕΕΙΠΕΠΙΣΤΕΥΩΤΟΝΥΙΟΝΤΟΥΘΥΕΙΝΑΙΤΟΝΙΗΧΡ [96 characters]
....
....
The blue line is Ben's torturous, voluminous and ridiculously long rendition of Acts 8:37. Yes, Ulan, he was pulling your leg.
Never mind that "my" rendition was actually straight from Scrivener's text, which agrees nearly verbatim with all other published texts of this verse known to me.
3. Being deceptive.
In that same post, you even suggested what my efforts
should have looked like:
John T wrote: ↑Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:21 amNow
if Ben's exercise were to be a fair representative of the problem we facing in textual criticism the red letters would line up more or less in a vertical column. Sort of like this.
ΑΙΣΟΥΠΕΡΙΤΙΝΟΣΟΠΡΟΦΗΤΗΣΛΕΓΕΙΤΟΥΤΟΠΕΡΙΕΑΥΤΟΥΗΠΕΡΙΕΤΕΡΟΥΤΙΝΟΣ
ΑΝΟΙΞΑΣΔΕΟΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΤΟΣΤΟΜΑΑΥΤΟΥΚΑΙΑΡΞΑΜΕΝΟΣΑΠῸΤΗΣΓΡΑΦ
ΗΣΤΑΥΤΗΣΕΥΗΓΓΕΛΙΣΑΤΟΑΥΤΩΙΤΟΝΙΗ ΩΣΔΕΕΠΟΡΕΥΟΝΤΟΚΑΤΑ
ΤΗΝΟΔΟΝΗΛΘΟΝΕΠΙΤΙΥΔΩΡΚΑΙΦΗΣΙΝΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΙΔΟΥΥΔΩΡΤΙΚΩΛΥΕΙΜΕΒΑΠΤΙΣΘΗΝΑΙ
ΚΑΙΕΚΕΛΕΥΣΕΝΣΤΗΝΑΙΤΟΑΡΜΑΚΑΙΚΑΤΕΒΗΣΑΝΑΜΦΟΤΕΡΟ
ΙΕΙΣΤΟΥΔΩΡΟΤΕΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΚΑΙΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΚΑΙΕΒΑΠΤΙΣΕΝΑΥΤΟΝ
Oh!
If I were being fair, my red reference letters
would have lined up pretty much in a vertical column. You went on to explain that you did the best you could in getting them to line up vertically, but it is not easy. Fair enough, but what ever happened to
my own efforts to do exactly this: to line up the red reference letters vertically?
Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:11 amWithout verse 37:
Acts 8.34-40 (NA27):
34 ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ εὐνοῦχος τῷ Φιλίππῳ εἶπεν· δέομαί σου, περὶ
1 τίνος ὁ προφήτης λέγει τοῦτο; περὶ ἑαυτοῦ ἢ περὶ ἑτέρου τινός; 35 ἀνοίξας
2 δὲ ὁ Φίλιππος τὸ στόμα αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀρξάμενος ἀπὸ τῆς γραφῆς ταύτης
3 εὐηγγελίσατο αὐτῷ τὸν Ἰη. 36 ὡς δὲ ἐπορεύοντο κατὰ τὴν ὁδόν, ἦλθον ἐπ-
4 ί τι ὕδωρ, καί φησιν ὁ εὐνοῦχος· ἰδοὺ ὕδωρ, τί κωλύει με βαπτισθῆναι; 37 - 38 καὶ
5 ἐκέλευσεν στῆναι τὸ ἅρμα καὶ κατέβησαν ἀμφότεροι εἰς τὸ ὕδωρ,
6 ὅ τε Φίλιππος καὶ ὁ εὐνοῦχος, καὶ ἐβάπτισεν αὐτόν. 39 ὅτε δὲ ἀνέ-
7 βησαν ἐκ τοῦ ὕδατος, πνα κυ ἥρπασεν τὸν Φίλιππον καὶ οὐκ εἶδ-
8 εν αὐτὸν οὐκέτι ὁ εὐνοῦχος, ἐπορεύετο γὰρ τὴν ὁδὸν αὐτοῦ χαίρων. 40
9 Φίλιππος δὲ εὑρέθη εἰς Ἄζωτον· καὶ διερχόμενος εὐηγγελίζετο
- τὰς πόλεις πάσας ἕως τοῦ ἐλθεῖν αὐτὸν εἰς Καισάρειαν.
With verse 37:
Acts 8.34-40 (NA27):
34 ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ εὐνοῦχος τῷ Φιλίππῳ εἶπεν· δέομαί σου, περὶ
1 τίνος ὁ προφήτης λέγει τοῦτο; περὶ ἑαυτοῦ ἢ περὶ ἑτέρου τινός; 35 ἀνοίξας
2 δὲ ὁ Φίλιππος τὸ στόμα αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀρξάμενος ἀπὸ τῆς γραφῆς ταύτης
3 εὐηγγελίσατο αὐτῷ τὸν Ἰη. 36 ὡς δὲ ἐπορεύοντο κατὰ τὴν ὁδόν, ἦλθον ἐπ-
4 ί τι ὕδωρ, καί φησιν ὁ εὐνοῦχος· ἰδοὺ ὕδωρ, τί κωλύει με βαπτισθῆναι; 37 εἶπε δὲ ὁ Φίλιππος, Εἰ πιστεύεις ἐξ ὅλης τῆς καρδίας, ἔξεστιν ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ εἶπε, Πιστεύω τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ Θῦ εἶναι τὸν Ἰν Χν 38 καὶ
5 ἐκέλευσεν στῆναι τὸ ἅρμα καὶ κατέβησαν ἀμφότεροι εἰς τὸ ὕδωρ,
6 ὅ τε Φίλιππος καὶ ὁ εὐνοῦχος, καὶ ἐβάπτισεν αὐτόν. 39 ὅτε δὲ ἀνέ-
7 βησαν ἐκ τοῦ ὕδατος, πνα κυ ἥρπασεν τὸν Φίλιππον καὶ οὐκ εἶδ-
8 εν αὐτὸν οὐκέτι ὁ εὐνοῦχος, ἐπορεύετο γὰρ τὴν ὁδὸν αὐτοῦ χαίρων. 40
9 Φίλιππος δὲ εὑρέθη εἰς Ἄζωτον· καὶ διερχόμενος εὐηγγελίζετο
- τὰς πόλεις πάσας ἕως τοῦ ἐλθεῖν αὐτὸν εἰς Καισάρειαν.
I had already done, some five days earlier, exactly what you accused me of not doing: lining up my own red reference letters vertically (and my letters even came out more vertically aligned than yours). But surely this was just an oversight on your part, not a deliberate deception, right? Who would lie in such a blatantly obvious fashion as to advertise the lie in the very telling of it? Alas, no, it was deception, since you had already
quoted the very post of mine in which I lined those reference letters up:
John T wrote: ↑Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:30 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:11 am
John T, I will have to guess on the exact margin cut-offs, since what we have is from the middle of the column and I do not know for sure
how centered it is within the original column. You have already accused me of acting in bad faith (by "pranking" you somehow, in a way that is not at all clear to me). What is to prevent you from doing the same when I present a format for which I have,
by necessity, made some educated guesses?? This is why the word counts are better: no guessing required. Either the verse in question fits in with the rest of the line counts or it stands out.
Nevertheless....
Without verse 37:
Acts 8.34-40 (NA27):
34 ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ εὐνοῦχος τῷ Φιλίππῳ εἶπεν· δέομαί σου, περὶ
1 τίνος ὁ προφήτης λέγει τοῦτο; περὶ ἑαυτοῦ ἢ περὶ ἑτέρου τινός; 35 ἀνοίξας
2 δὲ ὁ Φίλιππος τὸ στόμα αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀρξάμενος ἀπὸ τῆς γραφῆς ταύτης
3 εὐηγγελίσατο αὐτῷ τὸν Ἰη. 36 ὡς δὲ ἐπορεύοντο κατὰ τὴν ὁδόν, ἦλθον ἐπ-
4 ί τι ὕδωρ, καί φησιν ὁ εὐνοῦχος· ἰδοὺ ὕδωρ, τί κωλύει με βαπτισθῆναι; 37 - 38 καὶ
5 ἐκέλευσεν στῆναι τὸ ἅρμα καὶ κατέβησαν ἀμφότεροι εἰς τὸ ὕδωρ,
6 ὅ τε Φίλιππος καὶ ὁ εὐνοῦχος, καὶ ἐβάπτισεν αὐτόν. 39 ὅτε δὲ ἀνέ-
7 βησαν ἐκ τοῦ ὕδατος, πνα κυ ἥρπασεν τὸν Φίλιππον καὶ οὐκ εἶδ-
8 εν αὐτὸν οὐκέτι ὁ εὐνοῦχος, ἐπορεύετο γὰρ τὴν ὁδὸν αὐτοῦ χαίρων. 40
9 Φίλιππος δὲ εὑρέθη εἰς Ἄζωτον· καὶ διερχόμενος εὐηγγελίζετο
- τὰς πόλεις πάσας ἕως τοῦ ἐλθεῖν αὐτὸν εἰς Καισάρειαν.
With verse 37:
Acts 8.34-40 (NA27):
34 ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ εὐνοῦχος τῷ Φιλίππῳ εἶπεν· δέομαί σου, περὶ
1 τίνος ὁ προφήτης λέγει τοῦτο; περὶ ἑαυτοῦ ἢ περὶ ἑτέρου τινός; 35 ἀνοίξας
2 δὲ ὁ Φίλιππος τὸ στόμα αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀρξάμενος ἀπὸ τῆς γραφῆς ταύτης
3 εὐηγγελίσατο αὐτῷ τὸν Ἰη. 36 ὡς δὲ ἐπορεύοντο κατὰ τὴν ὁδόν, ἦλθον ἐπ-
4 ί τι ὕδωρ, καί φησιν ὁ εὐνοῦχος· ἰδοὺ ὕδωρ, τί κωλύει με βαπτισθῆναι; 37 εἶπε δὲ ὁ Φίλιππος, Εἰ πιστεύεις ἐξ ὅλης τῆς καρδίας, ἔξεστιν ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ εἶπε, Πιστεύω τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ Θῦ εἶναι τὸν Ἰν Χν 38 καὶ
5 ἐκέλευσεν στῆναι τὸ ἅρμα καὶ κατέβησαν ἀμφότεροι εἰς τὸ ὕδωρ,
6 ὅ τε Φίλιππος καὶ ὁ εὐνοῦχος, καὶ ἐβάπτισεν αὐτόν. 39 ὅτε δὲ ἀνέ-
7 βησαν ἐκ τοῦ ὕδατος, πνα κυ ἥρπασεν τὸν Φίλιππον καὶ οὐκ εἶδ-
8 εν αὐτὸν οὐκέτι ὁ εὐνοῦχος, ἐπορεύετο γὰρ τὴν ὁδὸν αὐτοῦ χαίρων. 40
9 Φίλιππος δὲ εὑρέθη εἰς Ἄζωτον· καὶ διερχόμενος εὐηγγελίζετο
- τὰς πόλεις πάσας ἕως τοῦ ἐλθεῖν αὐτὸν εἰς Καισάρειαν.
Thanks Ben,
I wrote out by hand a truncated version of Acts 8:37 using nomina sacra and majuscules in the style of p45 and it appears to fit nicely between lines four and five.
The problem is I don't have the computer skills to turn it into an overlay and superimpose it on the photo image of p45.
Perhaps you can help.
What software program did you use to make those nice red lines on the photo image?
Also, I need a program for typing out Koine Greek in capital letters.
The promised image has never made an appearance, so I cannot
directly judge the sincerity of your statement above, but to accuse me of not doing something which I did, and which you had indeed already quoted me as doing, is dishonest.
And there is more. As documented above, you
called my rendition of Acts 8.37 "torturous, voluminous," and "ridiculously long," despite it being the standard rendition of that verse; I called on you to give me
your (presumably shorter) rendition of the verse, to no avail (thus far), before remembering that
you had already given it in the OP of the thread:
John T wrote: ↑Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:04 pm
Does anyone know the history behind why
Acts 8:37 is missing (save a footnote) from the ESV, NRSV and most modern translations?
Acts 8:37 "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."...KJV
This version is a competent translation of the Greek text (from Scrivener) that I had given:
Acts 8.37: 37 εἶπε δὲ ὁ Φίλιππος, Εἰ πιστεύεις ἐξ ὅλης τῆς καρδίας, ἔξεστιν ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ εἶπε, Πιστεύω τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ εἶναι τὸν Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν.
The KJV rendition that you gave in the OP is a pretty literal translation of this Greek, and very close to word for word. So it turns out that your own rendition is essentially the same as "mine" (again: actually Scrivener's) which you had characterized as "ridiculously long." This is more deception on your part.
I am leaving this post here and bookmarking it in my browser as a reminder of your methods (if they can even be called such) the next time I am tempted to engage you on this forum. The last time you behaved this way you
claimed that you were just imitating mythicists; but now it seems clear that this is par for the course for you; it is your standard behavior toward people who do not immediately agree with you. I
do owe you a great laugh, though:
John T wrote: ↑Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:52 pmLet it go Ulan, it is simply out of your league both in linguistics and mathematics.
Best if imagined spoken in a pompous Foghorn Leghorn sort of voice. So... thanks for that, anyway.