Who axed Acts 8:37?

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Ulan
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Ulan » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:19 am

Yes, these are obviously the only solutions for verse 37 to have been in its normal place. Needless to say, it's pretty much clear that the scribes would not use only one third of the page width for their normal columns, and why would they write in such a weird way in the first place? The conclusion that there was no verse 37 between verses 36 and 38 in P45 is unavoidable.

If it was in the manuscript, it must have been in a different place altogether.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:50 am

Let's see what the demented genius comes up with next to satisfy his desire to see the passage was 'really there.'
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:54 am

Another fun exercise, an attempt to take a slightly different approach. Here are the character counts (not counting spaces) for the individual verses in Acts 8.34-40 (including verse 37):

34: ΑΠΟΚΡΙΘΕΙΣΔΕΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΤΩΙΦΙΛΙΠΠΩΙΕΙΠΕΝΔΕΟΜΑΙΣΟΥΠΕΡΙΤΙΝΟΣΟΠΡΟΦΗΤΗΣΛΕΓΕΙΤΟΥΤΟΠΕΡΙΕΑΥΤΟΥΗΠΕΡΙΕΤΕΡΟΥΤΙΝΟΣ [100 characters]
35: ΑΝΟΙΞΑΣΔΕΟΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΤΟΣΤΟΜΑΑΥΤΟΥΚΑΙΑΡΞΑΜΕΝΟΣΑΠῸΤΗΣΓΡΑΦΗΣΤΑΥΤΗΣΕΥΗΓΓΕΛΙΣΑΤΟΑΥΤΩΙΤΟΝΙΗ [82 characters]
36: ΩΣΔΕΕΠΟΡΕΥΟΝΤΟΚΑΤΑΤΗΝΟΔΟΝΗΛΘΟΝΕΠΙΤΙΥΔΩΡΚΑΙΦΗΣΙΝΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΙΔΟΥΥΔΩΡΤΙΚΩΛΥΕΙΜΕΒΑΠΤΙΣΘΗΝΑΙ [85 characters]
37: ΕΙΠΕΔΕΟΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΕΙΠΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΣΕΞΟΛΗΣΤΗΣΚΑΡΔΙΑΣΕΞΕΣΤΙΝΑΠΟΚΡΙΘΕΙΣΔΕΕΙΠΕΠΙΣΤΕΥΩΤΟΝΥΙΟΝΤΟΥΘΥΕΙΝΑΙΤΟΝΙΗΧΡ [96 characters]
38: ΚΑΙΕΚΕΛΕΥΣΕΝΣΤΗΝΑΙΤΟΑΡΜΑΚΑΙΚΑΤΕΒΗΣΑΝΑΜΦΟΤΕΡΟΙΕΙΣΤΟΥΔΩΡΟΤΕΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΚΑΙΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΚΑΙΕΒΑΠΤΙΣΕΝΑΥΤΟΝ [94 characters]
39: ΟΤΕΔΕΑΝΕΒΗΣΑΝΕΚΤΟΥΥΔΑΤΟΣΠΝΑΚΥΗΡΠΑΣΕΝΤΟΝΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΝΚΑΙΟΥΚΕΙΔΕΝΑΥΤΟΝΟΥΚΕΤΙΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΕΠΟΡΕΥΕΤΟΓΑΡΤΗΝΟΔΟΝΑΥΤΟΥΧΑΙΡΩΝ [108 characters]
40: ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΔΕΕΥΡΕΘΗΕΙΣΑΖΩΤΟΝΚΑΙΔΙΕΡΧΟΜΕΝΟΣΕΥΗΓΓΕΛΙΖΕΤΟΤΑΣΠΟΛΕΙΣΠΑΣΑΣΕΩΣΤΟΥΕΛΘΕΙΝΑΥΤΟΝΕΙΣΚΑΙΣΑΡΕΙΑΝ [95 characters]

As one can see, the 96 characters of verse 37 are more than the 85 of verse 36 before it and also more than the 94 of verse 38 after it. So verse 37 is not at all one short verse in the midst of long ones; its length compares favorably with the lengths of the verses in its immediate context.

Now, the following image shows which verses of Acts 8 can be physically seen on each line:

P45 Visible Verses.png
P45 Visible Verses.png (348.15 KiB) Viewed 5898 times

As one can see, with the exception of verse 34, which probably started on the previous page of the papyrus, none of our verses fits into a single line; they all spill over and are found on two lines. Verse 36 can be found represented on two lines, and verse 38 can be found represented on the very next two lines... but where is verse 37? It is a bit longer than both of those verses, and yet not a trace of it can be found in the visible column. Where is it hiding? Is it written in invisible ink and uncharacteristically tiny letters between the second line of verse 36 and the first line of verse 38?
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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John T
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by John T » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:20 am

Hang in there Ben,

My computer guru will be stopping over tonight after work and to see if he can get unicode for Koine Greek to work on Word 2016.

If so, I should have a more detailed post tomorrow, hopefully with pictures.

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift

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Secret Alias
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:22 am

There you go. We'll have to all hold off on our conclusions until the guy from the Greek Squad comes over to your house. I will contact all the best schools and seminaries to let them know that we can't come to a decision about Acts 8:37 until this guy comes over to your house. The state of academia hangs in the balance
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Steven Avery
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Steven Avery » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:28 am

Incidentally, James Snapp actually has a good paper reviewing the evidences on Acts 8:37 which is on his Facebook forum:

Acts 8:37 Evidence and Analysis
https://www.facebook.com/download/40256 ... vjla3PqPrq_

You can get there more officially through this post.

Acts 8:37 - Evidence and Analysis. An investigation of the evidence for, and against, the Ethiopian eunuch's confession as part of the text of Acts. (Word doc, 22 pages, illustrated)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/NTTextu ... 729689961/

And I would say that his paper is the best starting point for a discussion of Acts 8:37 evidences, at least as it relates to manuscripts and ECW references.

Ulan
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Ulan » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:30 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:22 am
There you go. We'll have to all hold off on our conclusions until the guy from the Greek Squad comes over to your house. I will contact all the best schools and seminaries to let them know that we can't come to a decision about Acts 8:37 until this guy comes over to your house. The state of academia hangs in the balance
It's kind of funny, as Greek letters are part of most of the standard character sets Word comes with out of the box.

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John T
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by John T » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:21 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:54 am
Another fun exercise, an attempt to take a slightly different approach. Here are the character counts (not counting spaces) for the individual verses in Acts 8.34-40 (including verse 37):

34: ΑΠΟΚΡΙΘΕΙΣΔΕΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΤΩΙΦΙΛΙΠΠΩΙΕΙΠΕΝΔΕΟΜΑΙΣΟΥΠΕΡΙΤΙΝΟΣΟΠΡΟΦΗΤΗΣΛΕΓΕΙΤΟΥΤΟΠΕΡΙΕΑΥΤΟΥΗΠΕΡΙΕΤΕΡΟΥΤΙΝΟΣ [100 characters]
35: ΑΝΟΙΞΑΣΔΕΟΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΤΟΣΤΟΜΑΑΥΤΟΥΚΑΙΑΡΞΑΜΕΝΟΣΑΠῸΤΗΣΓΡΑΦΗΣΤΑΥΤΗΣΕΥΗΓΓΕΛΙΣΑΤΟΑΥΤΩΙΤΟΝΙΗ [82 characters]
36: ΩΣΔΕΕΠΟΡΕΥΟΝΤΟΚΑΤΑΤΗΝΟΔΟΝΗΛΘΟΝΕΠΙΤΙΥΔΩΡΚΑΙΦΗΣΙΝΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΙΔΟΥΥΔΩΡΤΙΚΩΛΥΕΙΜΕΒΑΠΤΙΣΘΗΝΑΙ [85 characters]
37: ΕΙΠΕΔΕΟΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΕΙΠΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΣΕΞΟΛΗΣΤΗΣΚΑΡΔΙΑΣΕΞΕΣΤΙΝΑΠΟΚΡΙΘΕΙΣΔΕΕΙΠΕΠΙΣΤΕΥΩΤΟΝΥΙΟΝΤΟΥΘΥΕΙΝΑΙΤΟΝΙΗΧΡ [96 characters]
38: ΚΑΙΕΚΕΛΕΥΣΕΝΣΤΗΝΑΙΤΟΑΡΜΑΚΑΙΚΑΤΕΒΗΣΑΝΑΜΦΟΤΕΡΟΙΕΙΣΤΟΥΔΩΡΟΤΕΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΚΑΙΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΚΑΙΕΒΑΠΤΙΣΕΝΑΥΤΟΝ [94 characters]
39: ΟΤΕΔΕΑΝΕΒΗΣΑΝΕΚΤΟΥΥΔΑΤΟΣΠΝΑΚΥΗΡΠΑΣΕΝΤΟΝΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΝΚΑΙΟΥΚΕΙΔΕΝΑΥΤΟΝΟΥΚΕΤΙΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΕΠΟΡΕΥΕΤΟΓΑΡΤΗΝΟΔΟΝΑΥΤΟΥΧΑΙΡΩΝ [108 characters]
40: ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΔΕΕΥΡΕΘΗΕΙΣΑΖΩΤΟΝΚΑΙΔΙΕΡΧΟΜΕΝΟΣΕΥΗΓΓΕΛΙΖΕΤΟΤΑΣΠΟΛΕΙΣΠΑΣΑΣΕΩΣΤΟΥΕΛΘΕΙΝΑΥΤΟΝΕΙΣΚΑΙΣΑΡΕΙΑΝ [95 characters]

Let's continue with another fun exercise, shall we?
See if you can to follow the red bouncy ball.

34: ΑΠΟΚΡΙΘΕΙΣΔΕΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΤΩΙΦΙΛΙΠΠΩΙΕΙΠΕΝΔΕΟΜΑΙΣΟΥΠΕΡΙΤΙΝΟΣΟΠΡΟΦΗΤΗΣΛΕΓΕΙΤΟΥΤΟΠΕΡΙΕΑΥΤΟΥΗΠΕΡΙΕΤΕΡΟΥΤΙΝΟΣ
35: ΑΝΟΙΞΑΣΔΕΟΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΤΟΣΤΟΣΤΟΜΑΑΥΤΟΥΚΑΙΑΡΞΑΜΕΝΟΣΑΠῸΤΗΣΓΡΑΦΗΣΤΑΥΤΗΣΕΥΗΓΓΕΛΙΣΑΤΟΑΥΤΩΙΤΟΝΙΗ
36: ΩΣΔΕΕΠΟΡΕΥΟΝΤΟΚΑΤΑΤΗΝΟΔΟΝΗΛΘΟΝΕΠΙΤΙΥΔΩΡΚΑΙΦΗΣΙΝΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΙΔΟΥΥΔΩΡΤΙΚΩΛΥΕΙΜΕΒΑΠΤΙΣΘΗΝΑΙ
37: ΕΙΠΕΔΕΟΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΕΙΠΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΣΕΞΟΛΗΣΤΗΣΚΑΡΔΙΑΣΕΞΕΣΤΙΝΑΠΟΚΡΙΘΕΙΣΔΕΕΙΠΕΠΙΣΤΕΥΩΤΟΝΥΙΟΝΤΟΥΘΥΕΙΝΑΙΤΟΝΙΗΧΡ [96 characters]
38: ΚΑΙΕΚΕΛΕΥΣΕΝΣΤΗΝΑΙΤΟΑΡΜΑΚΑΙΚΑΤΕΒΗΣΑΝΑΜΦΟΤΕΡΟΙΕΙΣΤΟΥΔΩΡΟΤΕΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΚΑΙΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΚΑΙΕΒΑΠΤΙΣΕΝΑΥΤΟΝ
39: ΟΤΕΔΕΑΝΕΒΗΣΑΝΕΚΤΟΥΥΔΑΤΟΣΠΝΑΚΥΗΡΠΑΣΕΝΤΟΝΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΝΚΑΙΟΥΚΕΙΔΕΝΑΥΤΟΝΟΥΚΕΤΙΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΕΠΟΡΕΥΕΤΟΓΑΡΤΗΝΟΔΟΝΑΥΤΟΥΧΑΙΡΩΝ
40: ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΔΕΕΥΡΕΘΗΕΙΣΑΖΩΤΟΝΚΑΙΔΙΕΡΧΟΜΕΝΟΣΕΥΗΓΓΕΛΙΖΕΤΟΤΑΣΠΟΛΕΙΣΠΑΣΑΣΕΩΣΤΟΥΕΛΘΕΙΝΑΥΤΟΝΕΙΣΚΑΙΣΑΡΕΙΑΝ

The red letters represent Ben's reference points he highlighted on the p45 photo image.
The green letters are the letters visible to the naked eye on p45.
The black letters are Ben's preferred variant for the gaps in the manuscript, i.e. lacunae.
The blue line is Ben's torturous, voluminous and ridiculously long rendition of Acts 8:37. Yes, Ulan, he was pulling your leg.

Now if Ben's exercise were to be a fair representative of the problem we facing in textual criticism the red letters would line up more or less in a vertical column. Sort of like this.


ΑΙΣΟΥΠΕΡΙΤΙΝΟΣΟΠΡΟΦΗΤΗΣΛΕΓΕΙΤΟΥΤΟΠΕΡΙΕΑΥΤΟΥΗΠΕΡΙΕΤΕΡΟΥΤΙΝΟΣ
ΑΝΟΙΞΑΣΔΕΟΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΤΟΣΤΟΜΑΑΥΤΟΥΚΑΙΑΡΞΑΜΕΝΟΣΑΠῸΤΗΣΓΡΑΦ
ΗΣΤΑΥΤΗΣΕΥΗΓΓΕΛΙΣΑΤΟΑΥΤΩΙΤΟΝΙΗ ΩΣΔΕΕΠΟΡΕΥΟΝΤΟΚΑΤΑ
ΤΗΝΟΔΟΝΗΛΘΟΝΕΠΙΤΙΥΔΩΡΚΑΙΦΗΣΙΝΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΙΔΟΥΥΔΩΡΤΙΚΩΛΥΕΙΜΕΒΑΠΤΙΣΘΗΝΑΙ
ΚΑΙΕΚΕΛΕΥΣΕΝΣΤΗΝΑΙΤΟΑΡΜΑΚΑΙΚΑΤΕΒΗΣΑΝΑΜΦΟΤΕΡΟ
ΙΕΙΣΤΟΥΔΩΡΟΤΕΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΚΑΙΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΚΑΙΕΒΑΠΤΙΣΕΝΑΥΤΟΝ

I say sort of, because I have already written out by hand a version that lines up much better. However, due to my lack of computer skills and the limits of unicode TekniaGreek keyboarding, the above is about as good as I can get on this forum.

My hand written version has room for a coherent and responsible variation of Acts 8:37 between lines four and five.

The best way to show how Acts 8:37 would fit nicely is to have an overlay of the proposed variant superimposed on the actual photo image of p45.
But those kind of computer skills are way out of my league. All though I know someone who can do it, it is a question of when he can get to it, as well as getting permission to use the copyright protected image of p45 from Dan Wallace at the Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts.

Hopefully, the above will give Ben a better understanding of what I was trying to say from the get go.

Absence of evidence (lacunae) is not evidence of absence for Acts 8:37 in p45.
:tomato:
John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift

Ulan
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Ulan » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:33 am

John T wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:21 am
Let's continue with another fun exercise, shall we?
See if you can to follow the red bouncy ball.

34: ΑΠΟΚΡΙΘΕΙΣΔΕΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΤΩΙΦΙΛΙΠΠΩΙΕΙΠΕΝΔΕΟΜΑΙΣΟΥΠΕΡΙΤΙΝΟΣΟΠΡΟΦΗΤΗΣΛΕΓΕΙΤΟΥΤΟΠΕΡΙΕΑΥΤΟΥΗΠΕΡΙΕΤΕΡΟΥΤΙΝΟΣ
35: ΑΝΟΙΞΑΣΔΕΟΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΤΟΣΤΟΣΤΟΜΑΑΥΤΟΥΚΑΙΑΡΞΑΜΕΝΟΣΑΠῸΤΗΣΓΡΑΦΗΣΤΑΥΤΗΣΕΥΗΓΓΕΛΙΣΑΤΟΑΥΤΩΙΤΟΝΙΗ
36: ΩΣΔΕΕΠΟΡΕΥΟΝΤΟΚΑΤΑΤΗΝΟΔΟΝΗΛΘΟΝΕΠΙΤΙΥΔΩΡΚΑΙΦΗΣΙΝΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΙΔΟΥΥΔΩΡΤΙΚΩΛΥΕΙΜΕΒΑΠΤΙΣΘΗΝΑΙ
37: ΕΙΠΕΔΕΟΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΕΙΠΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΣΕΞΟΛΗΣΤΗΣΚΑΡΔΙΑΣΕΞΕΣΤΙΝΑΠΟΚΡΙΘΕΙΣΔΕΕΙΠΕΠΙΣΤΕΥΩΤΟΝΥΙΟΝΤΟΥΘΥΕΙΝΑΙΤΟΝΙΗΧΡ [96 characters]
38: ΚΑΙΕΚΕΛΕΥΣΕΝΣΤΗΝΑΙΤΟΑΡΜΑΚΑΙΚΑΤΕΒΗΣΑΝΑΜΦΟΤΕΡΟΙΕΙΣΤΟΥΔΩΡΟΤΕΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΚΑΙΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΚΑΙΕΒΑΠΤΙΣΕΝΑΥΤΟΝ
39: ΟΤΕΔΕΑΝΕΒΗΣΑΝΕΚΤΟΥΥΔΑΤΟΣΠΝΑΚΥΗΡΠΑΣΕΝΤΟΝΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΝΚΑΙΟΥΚΕΙΔΕΝΑΥΤΟΝΟΥΚΕΤΙΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΕΠΟΡΕΥΕΤΟΓΑΡΤΗΝΟΔΟΝΑΥΤΟΥΧΑΙΡΩΝ
40: ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΔΕΕΥΡΕΘΗΕΙΣΑΖΩΤΟΝΚΑΙΔΙΕΡΧΟΜΕΝΟΣΕΥΗΓΓΕΛΙΖΕΤΟΤΑΣΠΟΛΕΙΣΠΑΣΑΣΕΩΣΤΟΥΕΛΘΕΙΝΑΥΤΟΝΕΙΣΚΑΙΣΑΡΕΙΑΝ

The red letters represent Ben's reference points he highlighted on the p45 photo image.
The green letters are the letters visible to the naked eye on p45.
The black letters are Ben's preferred variant for the gaps in the manuscript, i.e. lacunae.
The blue line is Ben's torturous, voluminous and ridiculously long rendition of Acts 8:37. Yes, Ulan, he was pulling your leg.
Are you really that stupid? Ben is putting lots of work into trying to make you understand the issue, but you are not even capable of following a simple line of thought. The image you post here is trying to bring to your attention how long the verses are. Spatial relations are not considered here. It's nice that, at this point, you at least grasped that the red letters are the ones we see on the existing fragment. Of course, your conslusion is all wrong again.
John T wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:21 am
Now if Ben's exercise were to be a fair representative of the problem we facing in textual criticism the red letters would line up more or less in a vertical column. Sort of like this.


ΑΙΣΟΥΠΕΡΙΤΙΝΟΣΟΠΡΟΦΗΤΗΣΛΕΓΕΙΤΟΥΤΟΠΕΡΙΕΑΥΤΟΥΗΠΕΡΙΕΤΕΡΟΥΤΙΝΟΣ
ΑΝΟΙΞΑΣΔΕΟΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΤΟΣΤΟΜΑΑΥΤΟΥΚΑΙΑΡΞΑΜΕΝΟΣΑΠῸΤΗΣΓΡΑΦ
ΗΣΤΑΥΤΗΣΕΥΗΓΓΕΛΙΣΑΤΟΑΥΤΩΙΤΟΝΙΗ ΩΣΔΕΕΠΟΡΕΥΟΝΤΟΚΑΤΑ
ΤΗΝΟΔΟΝΗΛΘΟΝΕΠΙΤΙΥΔΩΡΚΑΙΦΗΣΙΝΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΙΔΟΥΥΔΩΡΤΙΚΩΛΥΕΙΜΕΒΑΠΤΙΣΘΗΝΑΙ
ΚΑΙΕΚΕΛΕΥΣΕΝΣΤΗΝΑΙΤΟΑΡΜΑΚΑΙΚΑΤΕΒΗΣΑΝΑΜΦΟΤΕΡΟ
ΙΕΙΣΤΟΥΔΩΡΟΤΕΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΚΑΙΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΚΑΙΕΒΑΠΤΙΣΕΝΑΥΤΟΝ

Ben already did this. It's the starting point of this discussion. You are disingenuous again.
John T wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:21 am
I say sort of, because I have already written out by hand a version that lines up much better. However, due to my lack of computer skills and the limits of unicode TekniaGreek keyboarding, the above is about as good as I can get on this forum.

My hand written version has room for a coherent and responsible variation of Acts 8:37 between lines four and five.
Well, you have to work with the text of P45 we physically have (those red letters), and there obviously is no text or space for any text between the visible lines four and five. Your solution is impossible. Any solution you produce must necessarily exactly reproduce the text you see in the papyrus, or it's not valid. You cannot add any lines, not even a single one. Lines four and five must stay lines four and five, because that's what's visible.

In conclusion, we can say that you actually have nothing. Surprise, surprise.

I'm still not sure whether I'm looking at an elaborate troll attempt on your part or gigantic stupidity here. I guess I'll go with the appropriate saying then, as it's clear you seem not to have grasped the issue we are looking at yet.

Edit: At this point, I don't believe that you actually wrote anything out on paper. You could just take a photograph of that and add it, for example, but I guess that's not what you will do.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:44 am

John T wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:21 am
The red letters represent Ben's reference points he highlighted on the p45 photo image.
The green letters are the letters visible to the naked eye on p45.
The black letters are Ben's preferred variant for the gaps in the manuscript, i.e. lacunae.

Now if Ben's exercise were to be a fair representative of the problem we facing in textual criticism the red letters would line up more or less in a vertical column. Sort of like this.


ΑΙΣΟΥΠΕΡΙΤΙΝΟΣΟΠΡΟΦΗΤΗΣΛΕΓΕΙΤΟΥΤΟΠΕΡΙΕΑΥΤΟΥΗΠΕΡΙΕΤΕΡΟΥΤΙΝΟΣ
ΑΝΟΙΞΑΣΔΕΟΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΤΟΣΤΟΜΑΑΥΤΟΥΚΑΙΑΡΞΑΜΕΝΟΣΑΠῸΤΗΣΓΡΑΦ
ΗΣΤΑΥΤΗΣΕΥΗΓΓΕΛΙΣΑΤΟΑΥΤΩΙΤΟΝΙΗ ΩΣΔΕΕΠΟΡΕΥΟΝΤΟΚΑΤΑ
ΤΗΝΟΔΟΝΗΛΘΟΝΕΠΙΤΙΥΔΩΡΚΑΙΦΗΣΙΝΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΙΔΟΥΥΔΩΡΤΙΚΩΛΥΕΙΜΕΒΑΠΤΙΣΘΗΝΑΙ
ΚΑΙΕΚΕΛΕΥΣΕΝΣΤΗΝΑΙΤΟΑΡΜΑΚΑΙΚΑΤΕΒΗΣΑΝΑΜΦΟΤΕΡΟ
ΙΕΙΣΤΟΥΔΩΡΟΤΕΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΚΑΙΟΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣΚΑΙΕΒΑΠΤΙΣΕΝΑΥΤΟΝ

I say sort of, because I have already written out by hand a version that lines up much better. However, due to my lack of computer skills and the limits of unicode TekniaGreek keyboarding, the above is about as good as I can get on this forum.
Yes, sort of like that. (I note your text above lacks Acts 8.37 as yet. Why did you not just fit it in while you were at it?) As Ulan pointed out, I already did this (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4481&start=50#p91535):
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:11 am
Without verse 37:

Acts 8.34-40 (NA27):
34 ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ εὐνοῦχος τῷ Φιλίππῳ εἶπεν· δέομαί σου, περὶ
1 τίνος ὁ προφήτης λέγει τοῦτο; περὶ ἑαυτοῦ ἢ περὶ ἑτέρου τινός; 35 ἀνοίξας
2 δὲ ὁ Φίλιππος τὸ στόμα αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀρξάμενος ἀπὸ τῆς γραφῆς ταύτης
3 εὐηγγελίσατο αὐτῷ τὸν Ἰη. 36 ὡς δὲ ἐπορεύοντο κατὰ τὴν ὁδόν, ἦλθον ἐπ-
4 ί τι ὕδωρ, καί φησιν ὁ εὐνοῦχος· ἰδοὺ ὕδωρ, τί κωλύει με βαπτισθῆναι; 37 - 38 καὶ
5 ἐκέλευσεν στῆναι τὸ ἅρμα καὶ κατέβησαν ἀμφότεροι εἰς τὸ ὕδωρ,
6τε Φίλιππος καὶ ὁ εὐνοῦχος, καὶ ἐβάπτισεν αὐτόν. 39 ὅτε δὲ ἀνέ-
7 βησαν ἐκ το ὕδατος, πνα κυ ἥρπασεν τὸν Φίλιππον καὶ οὐκ εἶδ-
8 εν αὐτὸν οὐκέτι ὁ εὐνοῦχος, ἐπορεύετο γὰρ τὴν ὁδὸν αὐτοῦ χαίρων. 40
9 Φίλιππος δὲ ερέθη εἰς Ἄζωτον· καὶ διερχόμενος εὐηγγελίζετο
- τὰς πόλεις πάσας ἕως τοῦ ἐλθεῖν αὐτὸν εἰς Καισάρειαν.

With verse 37:

Acts 8.34-40 (NA27):
34 ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ εὐνοῦχος τῷ Φιλίππῳ εἶπεν· δέομαί σου, περὶ
1 τίνος ὁ προφήτης λέγει τοῦτο; περὶ ἑαυτοῦ ἢ περὶ ἑτέρου τινός; 35 ἀνοίξας
2 δὲ ὁ Φίλιππος τὸ στόμα αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀρξάμενος ἀπὸ τῆς γραφῆς ταύτης
3 εὐηγγελίσατο αὐτῷ τὸν Ἰη. 36 ὡς δὲ ἐπορεύοντο κατὰ τὴν ὁδόν, ἦλθον ἐπ-
4 ί τι ὕδωρ, καί φησιν ὁ εὐνοῦχος· ἰδοὺ ὕδωρ, τί κωλύει με βαπτισθῆναι; 37 εἶπε δὲ ὁ Φίλιππος, Εἰ πιστεύεις ἐξ ὅλης τῆς καρδίας, ἔξεστιν ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ εἶπε, Πιστεύω τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ Θῦ εἶναι τὸν Ἰν Χν 38 καὶ
5 ἐκέλευσεν στῆναι τὸ ἅρμα καὶ κατέβησαν ἀμφότεροι εἰς τὸ ὕδωρ,
6τε Φίλιππος καὶ ὁ εὐνοῦχος, καὶ ἐβάπτισεν αὐτόν. 39 ὅτε δὲ ἀνέ-
7 βησαν ἐκ το ὕδατος, πνα κυ ἥρπασεν τὸν Φίλιππον καὶ οὐκ εἶδ-
8 εν αὐτὸν οὐκέτι ὁ εὐνοῦχος, ἐπορεύετο γὰρ τὴν ὁδὸν αὐτοῦ χαίρων. 40
9 Φίλιππος δὲ ερέθη εἰς Ἄζωτον· καὶ διερχόμενος εὐηγγελίζετο
- τὰς πόλεις πάσας ἕως τοῦ ἐλθεῖν αὐτὸν εἰς Καισάρειαν.

That was with lowercase letters, of course, but I did something similar with uppercase letters a bit later, using exactly the same line divisions: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4481&start=70#p91711.

Also, I completely understand not being able to line up the red reference letters perfectly. Mine did not align perfectly, either.
The blue line is Ben's torturous, voluminous and ridiculously long rendition of Acts 8:37. Yes, Ulan, he was pulling your leg. .... My hand written version has room for a coherent and responsible variation of Acts 8:37 between lines four and five.
What are you talking about? These are the sort of statements you make that make me suspect you are on a different endeavor than the rest of us are. We are talking about Acts 8.37, a verse found only in a few late Greek manuscripts. I used Scrivener's version, which you can find here: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ion=TR1894. It is in the public domain. His version runs as follows:

Acts 8.37: 37 ειπεν δε ο φιλιππος ει πιστευεις εξ ολης της καρδιας εξεστιν αποκριθεις δε ειπεν πιστευω τον υιον του θεου ειναι τον ιησουν χριστον.

I used ειπε instead of ειπεν, because sometimes manuscripts omit the nu on that word. I turned θεου, ιησουν, and χριστον into nomina sacra of two letters each: the absolute minimum. It occurs to me that sometimes υιον is a nomen sacrum, too, so let us throw that in, as well. This reduces the verse to 94 letters (I originally had 96 with only the three original nomina sacra I had listed).

Here is Stephanus' version (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ion=TR1550):

Acts 8.37: 37 ειπεν δε ο φιλιππος ει πιστευεις εξ ολης της καρδιας εξεστιν αποκριθεις δε ειπεν πιστευω τον υιον του θεου ειναι τον ιησουν χριστον.

And here is the SBL version:

Acts 8.37 SBL.png
Acts 8.37 SBL.png (85.28 KiB) Viewed 5847 times

So... what rendition of Acts 8.37 do you propose we use? If mine (well, Scrivener's) is torturous, voluminous, and ridiculously long, what version are you using, and whence did you get it?
Hopefully, the above will give Ben a better understanding of what I was trying to say from the get go.
Honestly, no, it makes me wonder what version you are using. Are you trying to use only the part of the verse quoted by Irenaeus? Or perhaps only the part (not the same part as Irenaeus) quoted by Cyprian? What "coherent and responsible variation" are you using?
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