Who axed Acts 8:37?

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Charles Wilson
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Charles Wilson » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:34 pm

Hello everyone. Thought I could stay away awhile longer but this passage is too interesting to keep me simply lurking. What is needed is the Story around verse 37. Similar to sweat falling like clots of blood, someone simply HAD to add verse 37. Which is to say, of course it's added, like Jesus talking about the Temple of his body @ age 47. "We gotta 'SPLAIN to these idiots. I'll just add these words, THEY HAVE TO BE CORRECT!!!"

Acts 8: 26 - 40 (RSV):

[26] But an angel of the Lord said to Philip, "Rise and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." This is a desert road.
[27] And he rose and went. And behold, an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a minister of the Can'dace, queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of all her treasure, had come to Jerusalem to worship

"The Candace" may be Bernice, later Consort of Titus.

[28] and was returning; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.
[29] And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot."

What kind of word is "Chariot"? Isn't this a "War Word"? Sorta' like: "Honey! I'm taking the tank to the Convenience Store to get some milk, OK?"

Get ready for some vicious SATIRE:
[30] So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?"
[31] And he said, "How can I, unless some one guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

Uh, Ohh!!!:

[32] Now the passage of the scripture which he was reading was this: "As a sheep led to the slaughter
or a lamb before its shearer is dumb,
so he opens not his mouth.
[33] In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken up from the earth."

You think this is about Jesus, don't you?

[34] And the eunuch said to Philip, "About whom, pray, does the prophet say this, about himself or about some one else?"
[35] Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this scripture he told him the good news of Jesus.
[36] And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?"

You think this is about "Baptism" don't you?

[38] And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.
[39] And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.
[40] But Philip was found at Azo'tus, and passing on he preached the gospel to all the towns till he came to Caesare'a.

Take out the semi-colon and comma in verse 39:

"And when they came up out of the water the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip and the eunuch saw him no more and went on his way rejoicing"

Who went on his way rejoicing? Why?

The eunuch sees Philip no more because he is dead.

Tacitus, Histories, Book 3:

"There was a sudden armed uprising in Pontus led by a barbarian slave who had once been prefect of the royal fleet. This was a certain Anicetus, a freedman of Polemo, who, having been once very powerful, was impatient of the change after the kingdom was transformed into a province. So he stirred up the people of Pontus in the name of Vitellius, bribing the poorest among them with hope of plunder. Then at the head of a band, which was far from being negligible, he suddenly attacked Trapezus, a city of ancient fame, founded by Greeks at the extreme end of the coast of Pontus...

"These events attracted Vespasian's attention, so that he sent detachments from his legions under the command of Virdius Geminus, whose military skill had been well tested. He attacked the enemy's troops when they were off their guard and were scattered in their greed for booty, and forced them to their boats; afterwards he quickly built some light galleys and caught up with Anicetus at the mouth of the river Chobus, where he had sought shelter under the protection of the king of the Sedochezi, whose alliance he had secured by bribes and gifts. At first the king sheltered his suppliant with the aid of threats and arms; but after the reward for treachery and the alternative of war were set before him, with the unstable loyalty of a barbarian he bargained away the life of Anicetus, gave up the refugees, and so an end was put to this servile war...

The quote from Isaiah isn't descriptive of a "Jesus" at all. Anicetus is about to get a sharp surprise in the back for his troubles. As stated in many Posts earlier, this passage in its entirety, ESP. the Camarae Boats, explains much of Acts. The odd passage of the small boat held together by ropes, the last 2 chapters, the refugees at the inlet - all in this section from Tacitus.

Of course verse 37 was added and later chopped! As in the excellent Post elsewhere concerning "Paul without Christ", the 2nd-3rd century awkwardness has to be explained away. The KULTURE has changed and the new sensibilities have to be massaged and the New Lessons MUST be about "Jesus" - the "Christ"... and all of that.

CW
Last edited by Charles Wilson on Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:56 pm

From one end of the spectrum to the other ...
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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John T
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by John T » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:41 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:53 pm
It's very difficult for someone who (1) wants something to be true and (2) is used to getting what they want to (3) stop, think and admit they are wrong without (4) the threat of a physical beating. Heraclitus - "Every beast is driven [to pasture] by blows." https://books.google.com/books?id=50clt ... ws&f=false
"And asses prefer straw to gold."...Heraclitus

Now, let the gold seekers (textual critics) do their work while you and Ulan eat straw. :cheeky:
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift

Maestroh
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Maestroh » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:47 am

John T wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:04 pm
Does anyone know the history behind why Acts 8:37 is missing (save a footnote) from the ESV, NRSV and most modern translations?

Acts 8:37 "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thous mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."...KJV

Sincerely,

John T
It isn't there because it has zero claim to originality.

Not a difficult concept at all.

gmx
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by gmx » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:00 am

Maestroh wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:47 am
John T wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:04 pm
Does anyone know the history behind why Acts 8:37 is missing (save a footnote) from the ESV, NRSV and most modern translations?

Acts 8:37 "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thous mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."...KJV

Sincerely,

John T
It isn't there because it has zero claim to originality.

Not a difficult concept at all.
No it's not a difficult concept. Degree of difficulty is irrelevant in determining the truth. We know Acts 8:37 pre-dates the manuscript record by a couple of centuries. The facts are far from difficult to understand. The explanation? Not so much.
I saw a Naked girl ,Slowly emerge in front of me,Greek hairstyle,Very beautiful,She has a beautiful [fine] profile.; She is fine in profile. the view of profile,hard to tell.

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John T
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by John T » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:30 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:11 am
John T, I will have to guess on the exact margin cut-offs, since what we have is from the middle of the column and I do not know for sure how centered it is within the original column. You have already accused me of acting in bad faith (by "pranking" you somehow, in a way that is not at all clear to me). What is to prevent you from doing the same when I present a format for which I have, by necessity, made some educated guesses?? This is why the word counts are better: no guessing required. Either the verse in question fits in with the rest of the line counts or it stands out.

Nevertheless....

Without verse 37:

Acts 8.34-40 (NA27):
34 ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ εὐνοῦχος τῷ Φιλίππῳ εἶπεν· δέομαί σου, περὶ
1 τίνος ὁ προφήτης λέγει τοῦτο; περὶ ἑαυτοῦ ἢ περὶ ἑτέρου τινός; 35 ἀνοίξας
2 δὲ ὁ Φίλιππος τὸ στόμα αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀρξάμενος ἀπὸ τῆς γραφῆς ταύτης
3 εὐηγγελίσατο αὐτῷ τὸν Ἰη. 36 ὡς δὲ ἐπορεύοντο κατὰ τὴν ὁδόν, ἦλθον ἐπ-
4 ί τι ὕδωρ, καί φησιν ὁ εὐνοῦχος· ἰδοὺ ὕδωρ, τί κωλύει με βαπτισθῆναι; 37 - 38 καὶ
5 ἐκέλευσεν στῆναι τὸ ἅρμα καὶ κατέβησαν ἀμφότεροι εἰς τὸ ὕδωρ,
6τε Φίλιππος καὶ ὁ εὐνοῦχος, καὶ ἐβάπτισεν αὐτόν. 39 ὅτε δὲ ἀνέ-
7 βησαν ἐκ το ὕδατος, πνα κυ ἥρπασεν τὸν Φίλιππον καὶ οὐκ εἶδ-
8 εν αὐτὸν οὐκέτι ὁ εὐνοῦχος, ἐπορεύετο γὰρ τὴν ὁδὸν αὐτοῦ χαίρων. 40
9 Φίλιππος δὲ ερέθη εἰς Ἄζωτον· καὶ διερχόμενος εὐηγγελίζετο
- τὰς πόλεις πάσας ἕως τοῦ ἐλθεῖν αὐτὸν εἰς Καισάρειαν.

With verse 37:

Acts 8.34-40 (NA27):
34 ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ εὐνοῦχος τῷ Φιλίππῳ εἶπεν· δέομαί σου, περὶ
1 τίνος ὁ προφήτης λέγει τοῦτο; περὶ ἑαυτοῦ ἢ περὶ ἑτέρου τινός; 35 ἀνοίξας
2 δὲ ὁ Φίλιππος τὸ στόμα αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀρξάμενος ἀπὸ τῆς γραφῆς ταύτης
3 εὐηγγελίσατο αὐτῷ τὸν Ἰη. 36 ὡς δὲ ἐπορεύοντο κατὰ τὴν ὁδόν, ἦλθον ἐπ-
4 ί τι ὕδωρ, καί φησιν ὁ εὐνοῦχος· ἰδοὺ ὕδωρ, τί κωλύει με βαπτισθῆναι; 37 εἶπε δὲ ὁ Φίλιππος, Εἰ πιστεύεις ἐξ ὅλης τῆς καρδίας, ἔξεστιν ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ εἶπε, Πιστεύω τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ Θῦ εἶναι τὸν Ἰν Χν 38 καὶ
5 ἐκέλευσεν στῆναι τὸ ἅρμα καὶ κατέβησαν ἀμφότεροι εἰς τὸ ὕδωρ,
6τε Φίλιππος καὶ ὁ εὐνοῦχος, καὶ ἐβάπτισεν αὐτόν. 39 ὅτε δὲ ἀνέ-
7 βησαν ἐκ το ὕδατος, πνα κυ ἥρπασεν τὸν Φίλιππον καὶ οὐκ εἶδ-
8 εν αὐτὸν οὐκέτι ὁ εὐνοῦχος, ἐπορεύετο γὰρ τὴν ὁδὸν αὐτοῦ χαίρων. 40
9 Φίλιππος δὲ ερέθη εἰς Ἄζωτον· καὶ διερχόμενος εὐηγγελίζετο
- τὰς πόλεις πάσας ἕως τοῦ ἐλθεῖν αὐτὸν εἰς Καισάρειαν.

Thanks Ben,

I wrote out by hand a truncated version of Acts 8:37 using nomina sacra and majuscules in the style of p45 and it appears to fit nicely between lines four and five.

The problem is I don't have the computer skills to turn it into an overlay and superimpose it on the photo image of p45.

Perhaps you can help.
What software program did you use to make those nice red lines on the photo image?
Also, I need a program for typing out Koine Greek in capital letters.

With that and a lot of help from my computer guru, I think I can cut&paste and make an overlay and submit it here for your approval.

Sincerely,

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift

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Secret Alias
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:58 am

WTF is your problem? It doesn't take 'computer assistance' to figure out a camel can't go through the eye of a needle ... Come on. I know you don't want to admit defeat but you have the ability to count right?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:38 am

John T wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:30 am
Perhaps you can help.
What software program did you use to make those nice red lines on the photo image?
Drum roll, please.... I used Microsoft Paint.
I wrote out by hand a truncated version of Acts 8:37 using nomina sacra and majuscules in the style of p45 and it appears to fit nicely between lines four and five.
Perhaps you could just scan a copy of what you wrote out and upload it to your post as an inline attachment?
Also, I need a program for typing out Koine Greek in capital letters.
Try this: http://www.typegreek.com. Just use caps lock for majuscules. It should come out something like this, if you are omitting spaces like the manuscript does:

ΕΙΠΕΔΕΟΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣΕΙΠΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΣΕΞΟΛΗΣΤΗΣΚΑΡΔΙΑΣΕΞΕΣΤΙΝΑΠΟΚΡΙΘΕΙΣΔΕΕΙΠΕΠΙΣΤΕΥΩΤΟΝΥΙΟΝΤΟΥΘΥΕΙΝΑΙΤΟΝΙΗΧΡ

Just copy and paste the text and select a font that will render the letters: like Arial.

Here is the formatted text again, just for reference:

Acts 8.34-40 (NA27): 34 ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ εὐνοῦχος τῷ Φιλίππῳ εἶπεν· δέομαί σου, περὶ τίνος ὁ προφήτης λέγει τοῦτο; περὶ ἑαυτοῦ ἢ περὶ ἑτέρου τινός; 35 ἀνοίξας δὲ ὁ Φίλιππος τὸ στόμα αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀρξάμενος ἀπὸ τῆς γραφῆς ταύτης εὐηγγελίσατο αὐτῷ τὸν Ἰησοῦν. 36 ὡς δὲ ἐπορεύοντο κατὰ τὴν ὁδόν, ἦλθον ἐπί τι ὕδωρ, καί φησιν ὁ εὐνοῦχος· ἰδοὺ ὕδωρ, τί κωλύει με βαπτισθῆναι; 37 - 38 καὶ ἐκέλευσεν στῆναι τὸ ἅρμα καὶ κατέβησαν ἀμφότεροι εἰς τὸ ὕδωρ, ὅ τε Φίλιππος καὶ ὁ εὐνοῦχος, καὶ ἐβάπτισεν αὐτόν. 39 ὅτε δὲ ἀνέβησαν ἐκ τοῦ ὕδατος, πνεῦμα κυρίου ἥρπασεν τὸν Φίλιππον καὶ οὐκ εἶδεν αὐτὸν οὐκέτι ὁ εὐνοῦχος, ἐπορεύετο γὰρ τὴν ὁδὸν αὐτοῦ χαίρων. 40 Φίλιππος δὲ εὑρέθη εἰς Ἄζωτον· καὶ διερχόμενος εὐηγγελίζετο τὰς πόλεις πάσας ἕως τοῦ ἐλθεῖν αὐτὸν εἰς Καισάρειαν.

And here is verse 37:

Acts 8.37 (Scrivener): 37 εἰπε δὲ ὁ Φίλιππος, Εἰ πιστεύεις ἐξ ὅλης τὴς καρδίας, ἔξεστιν. ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ εἷπε, Πιστεύω τὸν ὑιὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐιναι τὸν Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν.

With that and a lot of help from my computer guru, I think I can cut&paste and make an overlay and submit it here for your approval.

I cannot wait to see that mouse swallow an elephant.

ETA: Here are the majuscules without the spaces or versification removed yet (for convenience):

Acts 8.34-40 (majuscules):

34 ΑΠΟΚΡΙΘΕΙΣ ΔΕ Ο ΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣ ΤΩΙ ΦΙΛΙΠΠΩΙ ΕΙΠΕΝ ΔΕΟΜΑΙ ΣΟΥ ΠΕΡΙ ΤΙΝΟΣ Ο ΠΡΟΦΗΤΗΣ ΛΕΓΕΙ ΤΟΥΤΟ ΠΕΡΙ ΕΑΥΤΟΥ Η ΠΕΡΙ ΕΤΕΡΟΥ ΤΙΝΟΣ
35 ΑΝΟΙΞΑΣ ΔΕ Ο ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣ ΤΟ ΣΤΟΜΑ ΑΥΤΟΥΚΑΙ ΑΡΞΑΜΕΝΟΣ ΑΠῸ ΤΗΣ ΓΡΑΦΗΣ ΤΑΥΤΗΣ ΕΥΗΓΓΕΛΙΣΑΤΟ ΑΥΤΩΙ ΤΟΝ ΙΗ
36 ΩΣ ΔΕ ΕΠΟΡΕΥΟΝΤΟ ΚΑΤΑ ΤΗΝ ΟΔΟΝ ΗΛΘΟΝ ΕΠΙ ΤΙ ΥΔΩΡ ΚΑΙ ΦΗΣΙΝ Ο ΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣ ΙΔΟΥ ΥΔΩΡ ΤΙ ΚΩΛΥΕΙ ΜΕ ΒΑΠΤΙΣΘΗΝΑΙ
37 -
38 ΚΑΙ ΕΚΕΛΕΥΣΕΝ ΣΤΗΝΑΙ ΤΟ ΑΡΜΑ ΚΑΙ ΚΑΤΕΒΗΣΑΝ ΑΜΦΟΤΕΡΟΙ ΕΙΣ ΤΟ ΥΔΩΡ Ο ΤΕ ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣ ΚΑΙ Ο ΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣ, ΚΑΙ ΕΒΑΠΤΙΣΕΝ ΑΥΤΟΝ
39 ΟΤΕ ΔΕ ΑΝΕΒΗΣΑΝ ΕΚ ΤΟΥ ΥΔΑΤΟΣ ΠΝΑ ΚΥ ΗΡΠΑΣΕΝ ΤΟΝ ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΟΥΚ ΕΙΔΕΝ ΑΥΤΟΝ ΟΥΚΕΤΙ Ο ΕΥΝΟΥΧΟΣ ΕΠΟΡΕΥΕΤΟ ΓΑΡ ΤΗΝ ΟΔΟΝ ΑΥΤΟΥ ΧΑΙΡΩΝ
40 ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣ ΔΕ ΕΥΡΕΘΗ ΕΙΣ ΑΖΩΤΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΔΙΕΡΧΟΜΕΝΟΣ ΕΥΗΓΓΕΛΙΖΕΤΟ ΤΑΣ ΠΟΛΕΙΣ ΠΑΣΑΣ ΕΩΣ ΤΟΥ ΕΛΘΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΝ ΕΙΣ ΚΑΙΣΑΡΕΙΑΝ

Acts 8.37 (majuscules):

37 ΕΙΠΕ ΔΕ Ο ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣ ΕΙ ΠΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΣ ΕΞ ΟΛΗΣ ΤΗΣ ΚΑΡΔΙΑΣ ΕΞΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΠΟΚΡΙΘΕΙΣ ΔΕ ΕΙΠΕ ΠΙΣΤΕΥΩ ΤΟΝ ΥΙΟΝ ΤΟΥ ΘΥ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΤΟΝ ΙΗ ΧΡ

ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

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John T
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by John T » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:27 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:38 am
Try this: http://www.typegreek.com. Just use caps lock for majuscules. It should come out something like this, if you are omitting spaces like the manuscript does:
Thanks for the help.

My computer guru is here but he is fixing two other computers, I hope when he is done he will take a moment and show me how to complete the project.

I know this cut&paste, paint and copy image stuff seems easy peasy to you but it is Greek to me.
Pun intended.

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift

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Secret Alias
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:34 pm

:banghead:
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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