Who axed Acts 8:37?

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:11 am

John T, I will have to guess on the exact margin cut-offs, since what we have is from the middle of the column and I do not know for sure how centered it is within the original column. You have already accused me of acting in bad faith (by "pranking" you somehow, in a way that is not at all clear to me). What is to prevent you from doing the same when I present a format for which I have, by necessity, made some educated guesses?? This is why the word counts are better: no guessing required. Either the verse in question fits in with the rest of the line counts or it stands out.

Nevertheless....

Without verse 37:

Acts 8.34-40 (NA27):
34 ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ εὐνοῦχος τῷ Φιλίππῳ εἶπεν· δέομαί σου, περὶ
1 τίνος ὁ προφήτης λέγει τοῦτο; περὶ ἑαυτοῦ ἢ περὶ ἑτέρου τινός; 35 ἀνοίξας
2 δὲ ὁ Φίλιππος τὸ στόμα αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀρξάμενος ἀπὸ τῆς γραφῆς ταύτης
3 εὐηγγελίσατο αὐτῷ τὸν Ἰη. 36 ὡς δὲ ἐπορεύοντο κατὰ τὴν ὁδόν, ἦλθον ἐπ-
4 ί τι ὕδωρ, καί φησιν ὁ εὐνοῦχος· ἰδοὺ ὕδωρ, τί κωλύει με βαπτισθῆναι; 37 - 38 καὶ
5 ἐκέλευσεν στῆναι τὸ ἅρμα καὶ κατέβησαν ἀμφότεροι εἰς τὸ ὕδωρ,
6τε Φίλιππος καὶ ὁ εὐνοῦχος, καὶ ἐβάπτισεν αὐτόν. 39 ὅτε δὲ ἀνέ-
7 βησαν ἐκ το ὕδατος, πνα κυ ἥρπασεν τὸν Φίλιππον καὶ οὐκ εἶδ-
8 εν αὐτὸν οὐκέτι ὁ εὐνοῦχος, ἐπορεύετο γὰρ τὴν ὁδὸν αὐτοῦ χαίρων. 40
9 Φίλιππος δὲ ερέθη εἰς Ἄζωτον· καὶ διερχόμενος εὐηγγελίζετο
- τὰς πόλεις πάσας ἕως τοῦ ἐλθεῖν αὐτὸν εἰς Καισάρειαν.

With verse 37:

Acts 8.34-40 (NA27):
34 ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ εὐνοῦχος τῷ Φιλίππῳ εἶπεν· δέομαί σου, περὶ
1 τίνος ὁ προφήτης λέγει τοῦτο; περὶ ἑαυτοῦ ἢ περὶ ἑτέρου τινός; 35 ἀνοίξας
2 δὲ ὁ Φίλιππος τὸ στόμα αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀρξάμενος ἀπὸ τῆς γραφῆς ταύτης
3 εὐηγγελίσατο αὐτῷ τὸν Ἰη. 36 ὡς δὲ ἐπορεύοντο κατὰ τὴν ὁδόν, ἦλθον ἐπ-
4 ί τι ὕδωρ, καί φησιν ὁ εὐνοῦχος· ἰδοὺ ὕδωρ, τί κωλύει με βαπτισθῆναι; 37 εἶπε δὲ ὁ Φίλιππος, Εἰ πιστεύεις ἐξ ὅλης τῆς καρδίας, ἔξεστιν ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ εἶπε, Πιστεύω τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ Θῦ εἶναι τὸν Ἰν Χν 38 καὶ
5 ἐκέλευσεν στῆναι τὸ ἅρμα καὶ κατέβησαν ἀμφότεροι εἰς τὸ ὕδωρ,
6τε Φίλιππος καὶ ὁ εὐνοῦχος, καὶ ἐβάπτισεν αὐτόν. 39 ὅτε δὲ ἀνέ-
7 βησαν ἐκ το ὕδατος, πνα κυ ἥρπασεν τὸν Φίλιππον καὶ οὐκ εἶδ-
8 εν αὐτὸν οὐκέτι ὁ εὐνοῦχος, ἐπορεύετο γὰρ τὴν ὁδὸν αὐτοῦ χαίρων. 40
9 Φίλιππος δὲ ερέθη εἰς Ἄζωτον· καὶ διερχόμενος εὐηγγελίζετο
- τὰς πόλεις πάσας ἕως τοῦ ἐλθεῖν αὐτὸν εἰς Καισάρειαν.

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Ulan
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Ulan » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:07 pm

Note that line 4 in the second image is wrapped. It's basically the same image as before (well, the first image already explained everything).

Note also that it doesn't matter whether the preserved block is from the left edge, the center or the right edge. The space between the end of one line and the beginning of the next is always necessarily the same in all these cases.

Thanks, Ben, for counting the letters. They match the visual impression (well, it's no surprise, as this should be the case within a relatively small margin of error).

@JohnT: You don't really need any computer skills to solve this question. You can also use paper and pencil if you are really interested in the question (use two pieces of paper of the existing text and the one you want to squeeze in). Or just accept the point that you need to squeeze three lines worth of letters into one line to have 8:37 in there. The page width you need doesn't change even if you push the second half of the added text into the next line, because you need paper that is three times as wide as a normal line width for your idea to happen.

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John T
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by John T » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:42 pm

Ulan wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:07 pm
Note that line 4 in the second image is wrapped. It's basically the same image as before (well, the first image already explained everything).

Note also that it doesn't matter whether the preserved block is from the left edge, the center or the right edge. The space between the end of one line and the beginning of the next is always necessarily the same in all these cases.

Thanks, Ben, for counting the letters. They match the visual impression (well, it's no surprise, as this should be the case within a relatively small margin of error).

@JohnT: You don't really need any computer skills to solve this question. You can also use paper and pencil if you are really interested in the question (use two pieces of paper of the existing text and the one you want to squeeze in). Or just accept the point that you need to squeeze three lines worth of letters into one line to have 8:37 in there. The page width you need doesn't change even if you push the second half of the added text into the next line, because you need paper that is three times as wide as a normal line width for your idea to happen.
Ulan,

Thanks for the advice for what I already tried to do.

Now that Ben is no longer playing games at my expense and taking my point seriously, I have something to work with.
With that being said, I freely admit that Ben has the stronger case on this one.
However, my ever motto of; trust but verify still needs to be applied and with my limited knowledge of Greek, it will take some time.

Hang in there Ben, your hard work will soon be verified. Until then, I will stipulate Ben is correct and that Acts 8:37 could have not been included in p45. :cheers:

Now admit, isn't this what textual criticism is suppose to be all about?

Sincerely,

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift

Ulan
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Ulan » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:01 pm

John T wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:42 pm
Now that Ben is no longer playing games at my expense...
I still don't have the slightest idea what you mean by this. Ben's posts in this thread have all been very helpful.
John T wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:42 pm
... and taking my point seriously, I have something to work with.
With that being said, I freely admit that Ben has the stronger case on this one.
However, my ever motto of; trust but verify still needs to be applied and with my limited knowledge of Greek, it will take some time.
I guess I have a hard time understanding what it is that is so difficult about this, as knowledge of Greek isn't necessary. We are dealing with a simple geometry question. That's the reason why I suggested that you are pulling my leg.

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John T
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by John T » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:52 pm

Ulan wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:01 pm
John T wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:42 pm
Now that Ben is no longer playing games at my expense...
I still don't have the slightest idea what you mean by this. Ben's posts in this thread have all been very helpful.
John T wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:42 pm
... and taking my point seriously, I have something to work with.
With that being said, I freely admit that Ben has the stronger case on this one.
However, my ever motto of; trust but verify still needs to be applied and with my limited knowledge of Greek, it will take some time.
I guess I have a hard time understanding what it is that is so difficult about this, as knowledge of Greek isn't necessary. We are dealing with a simple geometry question. That's the reason why I suggested that you are pulling my leg.
Let it go Ulan, it is simply out of your league both in linguistics and mathematics.
But that is not to say you can't root loudly for your team from the peanut gallery. ;)
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift

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Secret Alias
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:53 pm

It's very difficult for someone who (1) wants something to be true and (2) is used to getting what they want to (3) stop, think and admit they are wrong without (4) the threat of a physical beating. Heraclitus - "Every beast is driven [to pasture] by blows." https://books.google.com/books?id=50clt ... ws&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Ulan
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Ulan » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:01 pm

John T wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:52 pm
Let it go Ulan, it is simply out of your league both in linguistics and mathematics.
But that is not to say you can't root loudly for your team from the peanut gallery. ;)
You are a poster child for the Dunning-Kruger effect. Fascinating.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:45 pm

Let it go Ulan, it is simply out of your league both in linguistics and mathematics.
This was hilarious. :lol: I have been giggling about it at random moments ever since.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:48 pm

This forum does that. It is often unintentionally hilarious.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Ulan
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Re: Who axed Acts 8:37?

Post by Ulan » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:09 pm

It truly is. My "fascinating" was in no way meant ironically. I have to admit that my main interest in religion is based on the view into the human mind it affords us. It's quite a journey.

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