What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

Post by Secret Alias »

1 Tim 3:2 is interesting. But μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα can't mean anything other than fidelity. One woman man would be the nearest literal rendering. It just means that the bishop has to be faithful. Compare an interesting section in Epiphanius against the Cathari:
For they have assumed that what is enjoined upon the priesthood because of the preeminence of priestly service applies equally to everyone. They have heard, “The bishop must be blameless, the husband of one wife, continent; likewise the deacon and the presbyter,” but not understood the limitation of the ordinances. (2) Since Christ’s incarnation, in fact, because of the priesthood’s superior rank, God’s holy Gospel does not accept men for the priesthood after a first marriage, if they have remarried because their first wife died. And God’s holy church observes this with
unfailing strictness. (3) She does not even accept the husband of one wife if he is still co-habiting with her and fathering children. She does accept
the abstinent husband of one wife,
or a widower, as a deacon, presbyter, bishop and subdeacon, [but no other married men], particularly where the canons of the church are strictly enforced. 12

4.4 But in some places, you will surely tell me, presbyters, deacons and sub-deacons are still fathering children [while exercising their office.] This is not canonical, but is due to men’s occasional remissness of purpose, and because there is no one to serve the congregation.
Epiphanius's reading of 1 Timothy is quite eye-opening δεῖ τὸν ἐπίσκοπον ἀνεπίληπτον εἶναι, μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα, ἐγκρατῆ ὡσαύτως καὶ τὸν διάκονον
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
John T
Posts: 1567
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 8:57 am

Re: What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

Post by John T »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:46 am So an intern at some random website is authoritative ? Sorry no can do.
But Secret Alias is authoritative on all matters of his concern and never wrong.
Yep, got it.

That will be all.
John T is done with this thread.
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
User avatar
Joseph D. L.
Posts: 1405
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:10 am

Re: What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

Post by Joseph D. L. »

MrMacSon wrote: Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:24 am
Joseph D. L. wrote: Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:03 pm My own view is that Christianity is a derivative of the Antinous cult, and it's baptism rite was originally a ritual in which the initiate would be anointed with the Holy semen of "the Christ".
Christianity is likely to have been influenced by the the Antinous cult, which persisted long after Hadrian dies, so it was not just a cult that the people of Hadrian's rule had supported out duty to him (as emperor). Christianity certainly put a stop to it in the 4th century (though it was never as large as those of well established deities such as Zeus, Dionysus, Demeter, or Asclepios, or even as large as those of cults which were growing in popularity in the 2nd and 3rd centurys, such as Isis or Serapis; and had also been smaller than the official imperial cult of Hadrian himself).

Antinous died by drowning in the Nile on the day of the festival of Osiris’ passion of death and rebirth, held at Hermopolis on the east bank of the Nile, and, as the priests of Egypt believed that anyone who drowned in the Nile was a demi-god and as his death had occurred during Osiris’ festival, Antinous was immediate syncretised with Osiris as a new Man-God.

Hadrian decreed the establishment of the city of Antinopolis at the very spot Antinous died, nearly opposite Hermopolis. then used Antinous as a symbol of pan-Hellenic unity, founding the Panhellenion in an attempt to erode the feuding endemic to the Greek city-states, while promoting the worship of the ancient gods.

Hadrian also took the opportunity to enshrine Antinous with political and personal loyalties specific to Hadrian.

Hadrain presented Antinous to the Greek lands in a form syncretised with the more familiar deity Hermes: Hermes-Antinous. Elsewhere, he was far more widely syncretised with the god Dionysus. The cult also spread through Egypt, and within a few years of its foundation, altars and temples to the god had been erected in Hermopolis, Alexandria, Oxyrhynchus, Tebytnis, Lykopolis, and Luxor.

Antinous was understood differently by his various worshippers, in part due to regional and cultural variation. In some inscriptions he is identified as a divine hero, in others as a god, and in others as both a divine hero and a benevolent deity. He was also seen as a conqueror of death, with his name and image often being included in coffins.

The Antinous cult was genuinely popular among the different societal classes in the Empire. Part of the appeal was that Antinous had once been human himself, and thus was more easily related to than many other deities (which is probably a reason narratives about Jesus would have gained traction with people).
Pretty much all of this. I'll add in a few points of my own ideas...

I strongly believe that the Aquila figure associated with Hadrian (whether by familial relationship, or what have you) was assigned to sway Jews into accepting him [Hadrian] as the Messiah and simultaneously pay honours to his deceased lover, Antinous. We see this in the John as Lazarus and the Beloved Disciple; in Mark as the fleeing Youth, and Secret Mark as the Youth whom Jesus loves.

The mystery of the veil left behind by the fleeing Youth, and the wrappings of Lazarus, is further explained by the mummification rite in Egypt, wherein the deceased, honoured as Osiris, would be wrapped in mummy bandages to ensure preservation. Lazarus is almost explicitly an Osiris stand in, with his two sisters representing Isis and Nephthys.

There's also a theological implication at work here as well. Antinous's own death by drowning in the Nile mirrored Osiris's death by drowning in the Nile. The Nile, with its annual inundation, was the preeminent symbol for rebirth, resurrection, renewal, and rejuvenation for the land. This connects to baptism, especially in Paul's belief of it in Romans, and Plutarch also stated that Osiris's immersion in the Nile was also a symbol for death and renewal.

The Nile was believed to be effuse of bodily fluids from Osiris. Not the least of which was seamen. It's not hard to understand why. The emphasis of fertility is signified in both. Numerous artistic depictions in Egypt show Anubis purifying the deceased with water from the Nile. But seamen may have been used in lieu of Nile water.

But the question remains for me: was Christianity originally the Antinous cult, or was it merely a derivative of it? To put it another way, what was the relationship between Christianity and the cult of Antinous?

You may be thinking, "isn't obvious what you think? given what you have laid out above." My concern is that the Antinous layer represented a separate development that eventually became integrated with Christianity proper (i.e., the Nazarenes).

Let me draw out my hypothesis:

Layer 1) Dositheanism and Lukuas

Layer 2) Jewish sectarian community in Judea / Antinous cult

Layer 3) Community splits into Ebionites and Nazarenes

With my observations with Lazarus and Antinous, I cannot but believe the two are relatable, if not the same. My only reservation is how and why the Nazarenes would adopt aspects of the cult (if indeed they did), when distancing themselves from Aquila/Paul? Perhaps it assured them a better chance at survival, after the Ebionites followed bar Kochba to their deaths.

Who knows?
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

Post by iskander »

John T wrote: Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:13 am
Secret Alias wrote: Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:44 am
I don't see any evidence that Christian hierarchy was originally designed as ascetic/celibate lifestyle.
I can't think of an example before Demetrius in Severus of Al-Ashumein's Coptic Church history of a married bishop. And Demetrius seems to have been the exception....The point here is that celibacy was regarded as an apostolic precedent.
Precedent customs and canon law are two different things.

Where and when did the local synods precedent custom of celibate unmarried bishops become canon law?

"The Church was a thousand years old before it definitively took a stand in favor of celibacy in the twelfth century at the Second Lateran Council held in 1139, when a rule was approved forbidding priests to marry. In 1563, the Council of Trent reaffirmed the tradition of celibacy."...Helen Owen

https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/696
Celibacy was imposed on the priesthood because of the need to have a committed priesthood. Jesus made the married man Peter" keeper of the keys".
The attachment keepers of the keys 1.PNG is no longer available
The attachment keepers of the keys 1.PNG is no longer available
The attachment keepers of the keys 1.PNG is no longer available
Attachments
keepers of the keys 1.PNG
keepers of the keys 1.PNG (184.34 KiB) Viewed 8985 times
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

Post by iskander »

keepers of the keys 2.PNG
keepers of the keys 2.PNG (154.98 KiB) Viewed 8984 times
continued
nightshadetwine
Posts: 253
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:35 am

Re: What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

Post by nightshadetwine »

Joseph D. L. wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:58 am The Nile, with its annual inundation, was the preeminent symbol for rebirth, resurrection, renewal, and rejuvenation for the land. This connects to baptism, especially in Paul's belief of it in Romans, and Plutarch also stated that Osiris's immersion in the Nile was also a symbol for death and renewal.
This is also what happens to the sun god when he enters the underworld and then returns from the underworld in the morning. When Re enters the underworld he goes through a watery realm and then on his way back out of the underworld he goes through another watery realm. While Re is in the underworld he dies or becomes a corpse and then is resurrected. He also brings life to the dead in the underworld as he passes through the 12 hours of the night. I believe this myth of Re going through the underworld was an influence on the myths surrounding Jesus.

From "Conceptions of God in Ancient Egypt: The One and the Many" by Erik Hornung:
in his daily descent into the realm of the dead the sun god Re must also become “Osiris,” for he dies and appears in the underworld as a “corpse.” But in this case the Egyptians imagine that there is a true union. Unlike the rest of the deceased, Re does not assume the title “Osiris”; instead he incorporates the ruler of the dead into his own being so profoundly that both have one body and can “speak with one mouth.” Osiris does indeed seem to be absorbed into Re, and becomes the night sun, which awakens the underworld dwellers from the sleep of death.
From "The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt" by Richard H. Wilkinson:
The great sun god Re was thought to grow old each day and to 'die' each night(though for the same reason[because such a
statement would be believed to magically preserve the reality of the god's death], specific mention of the god's death is not found), and then to be born or resurrected each day at dawn.
From "Les fêtes d'Osiris à Abydos au Moyen Empire et au Nouvel Empire" by M. Christine Lavier:
It is always about the source of life, the fresh water in which the divinity (Re, Osiris) immerses himself, in prelude to his (re) birth.
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amduat:
In hours 2 and 3 he passes through an abundant watery world called 'Wernes' and the 'Waters of Osiris'...Once this has been done the sun god opens the doors of the tomb in hour 8 and then leaves the sandy island of Sokar by rowing vigorously back into the waters in hour 9. In hour 10 the regeneration process continues through immersion in the waters until in hour 11 the god's eyes (a symbol for his health and well being) are fully regenerated. In hour 12 he enters the eastern horizon ready to rise again as the new day's sun
User avatar
Joseph D. L.
Posts: 1405
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:10 am

Re: What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

Post by Joseph D. L. »

This is one way that Egyptian mythology may have influenced Christianity: by proxy of the Antinous cult.

Also with Moses, whose name means drawn from the water, an apparent allusion to Osiris.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

Post by MrMacSon »

Joseph D. L. wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:58 am
But the question remains for me: was Christianity originally the Antinous cult, or was it merely a derivative of it?1 To put it another way, what was the relationship between Christianity and the cult of Antinous?1

... My concern is that the Antinous layer represented a separate development that eventually became integrated with Christianity proper (i.e., the Nazarenes).

... My only reservation is how and why the Nazarenes would adopt aspects of the cult (if indeed they did)1, when distancing themselves from Aquila/Paul? Perhaps it assured them a better chance at survival, after the Ebionites followed bar Kochba to their deaths.
.
1 If there was a relationship between Christianity and the Antinous cult it may not have been by being a derivative of it per se. I'm not sure why you tie the cult of Antinous to 'the Nazarenes', partly b/c 'Nazarenes' is a poorly defined group.

The title "Nazarene" is 'first found' in the Greek texts of the New Testament as an adjective, nazarenos, (Ναζαρηνός) as used in the phrase apo Nazaret "from Nazareth." Overal, the form Nazoraios or Nazaraios (Ναζωραῖος, Ναζαραῖος) is more common in the New Testament than Nazarenos. 

Mishnaic (and modern) Hebrew has notzrim (נוצרים) as a standard Hebrew term for "Christian".

The term "Christians" is said to have been first used at Antioch (Acts 11:26) and Herod Agrippa II is attributed with using it, in Acts 26:28.

"Nazarenes" is used in Acts 24:5, where Paul the Apostle is accused before Felix at Caesarea (the capital of Roman Judaea) by Tertullus.


Epiphanius in Panarion, 29:6,1, says that "the sect of Nasaraeans/Nasaraioi was before Christ and did not know Christ" and distinguished them and the spelling from Nazoraeans.


Another view is
The name could have been applied to any strictly law-observing Jewish sect, for the root n -ṣ-r means ‘to keep, observe, guard’ and could have been used as a laudatory term for more than one group of Jewish dissidents, particularly if they had secret teachings.’ Nasoraeans of the Mandaean type ‘keep and observe’ ritual law with zealous fidelity and ‘keep back‘- even from their own laity-mysteries considered deep and easily misunderstood by the uninitiated.

Nasoraean hatred for Jews must have originated at a period at which Nasoraeans were in close contact with orthodox jewry and at a time when the orthodox Jews had some authority over them. All this points to the truth of the Haran Gawaitla tradition. Heterodox Judaism in Galilee and Samaria appears to have taken shape in the form we now call gnostic, and it may well have existed some time before the Christian era.

http://holybooks.lichtenbergpress.netdn ... Gnosis.pdf

The Mandaeans are said to have fled Jerusalem before its fall (70 AD) due to persecution by the Jews (there is commentary in the wikipedia article that "the word Naṣuraiia may come from the root n-ṣ-r meaning 'to keep' since, although they reject the law, they considered themselves to be keepers of Gnosis": I dunno how relevant reference to 'keepers of Gnosis' is). Though -
Jesus appears in the Coptic Christian gnostic manuscripts he is used as a mouthpiece of gnosis. There is no attempt to represent him as an historical figure, although by use of his name the Coptic gnosis is given a Christian aspect.




Let me draw out my hypothesis:

Layer 1) Dositheanism and Lukuas

Layer 2) Jewish sectarian community in Judea / Antinous cult
.

The pdf article cited above notes that "Simon called ‘the Magian’, Dositheus, and Simon’s successor Menander were all Samaritans-and baptists" and, immmediately previously in the same senetnce that "In Samaria, therefore, we have a natural forcing-bed for early gnosticism" and previously in the same paragraph that "Samaritans were usually ready to assist the enemies of the Jews" [all p.100].


The Aquila dimension is interesting. Epiphanius (De Ponderibus et Mensuris, chap. xiii-xvi.; ed. Migne, ii. 259-264) preserves a tradition that he was a kinsman of the Roman emperor Hadrian, who employed him in rebuilding Jerusalem as Aelia Capitolina, and that Aquila was converted to Christianity but, on being reproved for practicing astrology, 'apostatized' to Judaism.
  • (I doubt he would have converted to Christianity but he may have belonged to another Christ-tradition.)

Robert M Price noted that the Clementine Recognitions mentions that Simon Magus had a disciple named Aquila, like Acts’s “John Mark” (Acts 12:12; 15:36-40; 1 Peter 5:13), Aquila leaves the Pauline circle to wind up in the Petrine circle instead. Prices says 'disciples of each apostle are (fictively) traded like ambassadors of two hitherto hostile countries.'
  • Price, Robert M. The Amazing Colossal Apostle: The Search for the Historical Paul (Kindle Locations 6048-6054). Signature Books. Kindle Edition.
Roman 16:3 mentions Priscilla and Aquila and they are elsewhere referred to as associates of Paul (Acts 18:2, 18, 26; 1 Cor. 16:19; 2 Tim. 4:19). Price says the Acts 18:1-4 scene --in which Priscilla and Aquila take Apollo aside and correct his doctrine by a few tweaks-- might reflect the fact that, from the Marcionite perspective, Apelles, Marcion’s disciple, had in later years strayed a bit from Marcionite orthodoxy. It makes it appear that he was finally brought back into the fold by the Simonian Aquila and the prophesying virgin Philumene, whose revelations and instruction Apelles is known to have sought. It is tempting also to identify this Priscilla with the Montanist prophetess Priscilla.
  • Price, Robert M.. The Amazing Colossal Apostle: The Search for the Historical Paul (Kindle Locations 6048-6054). Signature Books. Kindle Edition.
User avatar
Joseph D. L.
Posts: 1405
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:10 am

Re: What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

Post by Joseph D. L. »

MrMacSon wrote: Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:23 am
Joseph D. L. wrote: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:58 am
But the question remains for me: was Christianity originally the Antinous cult, or was it merely a derivative of it?1 To put it another way, what was the relationship between Christianity and the cult of Antinous?1

... My concern is that the Antinous layer represented a separate development that eventually became integrated with Christianity proper (i.e., the Nazarenes).

... My only reservation is how and why the Nazarenes would adopt aspects of the cult (if indeed they did)1, when distancing themselves from Aquila/Paul? Perhaps it assured them a better chance at survival, after the Ebionites followed bar Kochba to their deaths.
.
1 If there was a relationship between Christianity and the Antinous cult it may not have been by being a derivative of it per se. I'm not sure why you tie the cult of Antinous to 'the Nazarenes', partly b/c 'Nazarenes' is a poorly defined group.
Clement of Alexandria's Letter to Theodore paints the Carpocratians in a way reminiscent of the Antinous cult. Celsus also makes several comparisons between Christianity and this cult particularly.

I've been able to give a rough reconstruction of what the Nazarenes were, or at least where they came from.

Before ca. 125 ad, there was only a single Jewish sectarian community which had connections to Dositheanism and were probably Essenes. (Note: I don't mean that they penned the Dead Sea Scrolls. Just used them). After Lukuas's retreat from Alexandria to Judea, he gained support from Julian and Pappus to continue a proxy revolt. Before his capture and likely execution, he appointed Julian (John, called Shemaiah, that is, Simon) as the Christ, or leader of the Community, with his brother Pappus (called Ahiah, brother of the Lord) acting as his second in command.

Keep in mind that at this time there is still no recognizable trace of Christianity. The Community is still effectively Jewish sectarianistic.

Now, around the time of ca. 125 ad, Aquila comes into the fold with the intention to turn the Jews towards Hadrian. (I have an auxiliary theory as to who Aquila was and why he favoured Hadrian, but that's for later). Aquila manages to pacify at least some of the Community, but the others fully reject him. This causes the first seams to appear.

But what really does it in is the introduction of the virgin birth. The Gospel of Thomas states that when the Community comes to a man who has not been born of a woman, they are to worship him, for he is their father. This is a clear allusion to the virgin birth. Yet Jesus passes off as something to come. Not himself.

And what was the major difference between the Ebionites and Nazarenes? The Nazarenes accepted the virgin birth. The Ebionites rejected it. The reason this prophecy in Thomas was recontextualized was because Aquila was claiming it for himself. The Community rejected Aquila, but some held onto some of his teachings, only applying it to their Messiah figure, Lukuas. Those who favoured Julian, essentially exiled those who accepted the virgin birth. And so the Ebionites and Nazarenes were born concurrently.

Thus the collapse of the Community was assured. And those who followed Julian, now called Simon bar Kochba, died in the aftermath of the revolt.

The Nazarenes, not wanting to suffer the same fate, allowed a syncretism of sorts with the Antinous cult, wanting to be looked unassumingly by Hadrian. It just so happened that the very man who was helping to promote the Antinous cult in Egypt, was the very man the Nazarenes had rejected some years previously.

So that's really the only defining feature of the Nazarenes. The virgin birth. And they probably wrote Protoevangelium of James, a text that presupposes a first Gospel of James, likely Gospel of the Nazarenes. Any text that favours James, is either Nazarene or Ebionite.

Of course it goes without saying that this purely conjecture and opinion, with solely circumstantial evidence backing it. I fully admit to that. But given how most reconstructions of early Christianity are made, I hope that this is a better case. At least I don't take for granted a Christianity in the first century, because that's impossible.
The title "Nazarene" is 'first found' in the Greek texts of the New Testament as an adjective, nazarenos, (Ναζαρηνός) as used in the phrase apo Nazaret "from Nazareth." Overal, the form Nazoraios or Nazaraios (Ναζωραῖος, Ναζαραῖος) is more common in the New Testament than Nazarenos. 

Mishnaic (and modern) Hebrew has notzrim (נוצרים) as a standard Hebrew term for "Christian".

The term "Christians" is said to have been first used at Antioch (Acts 11:26) and Herod Agrippa II is attributed with using it, in Acts 26:28.

"Nazarenes" is used in Acts 24:5, where Paul the Apostle is accused before Felix at Caesarea (the capital of Roman Judaea) by Tertullus.


Epiphanius in Panarion, 29:6,1, says that "the sect of Nasaraeans/Nasaraioi was before Christ and did not know Christ" and distinguished them and the spelling from Nazoraeans.
This is in line with my model, as the Nazarenes evolved into Christianity around the time of Aurelius.

However, Epiphanius saying that Nazarenes existed a hundred years before Jesus (100 bc) or anyone saying that Jesus lived during the time of Alexander Jannaeus, is simply not true. The Community probably had ties to older traditions, especially if it was Essene, but the Nazarenes only emerged as an autonomous group after Kitos, and probably after bar Kochba.

Another view is
The name could have been applied to any strictly law-observing Jewish sect, for the root n -ṣ-r means ‘to keep, observe, guard’ and could have been used as a laudatory term for more than one group of Jewish dissidents, particularly if they had secret teachings.’ Nasoraeans of the Mandaean type ‘keep and observe’ ritual law with zealous fidelity and ‘keep back‘- even from their own laity-mysteries considered deep and easily misunderstood by the uninitiated.

Nasoraean hatred for Jews must have originated at a period at which Nasoraeans were in close contact with orthodox jewry and at a time when the orthodox Jews had some authority over them. All this points to the truth of the Haran Gawaitla tradition. Heterodox Judaism in Galilee and Samaria appears to have taken shape in the form we now call gnostic, and it may well have existed some time before the Christian era.

http://holybooks.lichtenbergpress.netdn ... Gnosis.pdf
Nothing substantial I can add to this at the moment.
The Mandaeans are said to have fled Jerusalem before its fall (70 AD) due to persecution by the Jews (there is commentary in the wikipedia article that "the word Naṣuraiia may come from the root n-ṣ-r meaning 'to keep' since, although they reject the law, they considered themselves to be keepers of Gnosis": I dunno how relevant reference to 'keepers of Gnosis' is). Though -
Jesus appears in the Coptic Christian gnostic manuscripts he is used as a mouthpiece of gnosis. There is no attempt to represent him as an historical figure, although by use of his name the Coptic gnosis is given a Christian aspect.


As above.
The pdf article cited above notes that "Simon called ‘the Magian’, Dositheus, and Simon’s successor Menander were all Samaritans-and baptists" and, immmediately previously in the same senetnce that "In Samaria, therefore, we have a natural forcing-bed for early gnosticism" and previously in the same paragraph that "Samaritans were usually ready to assist the enemies of the Jews" [all p.100].
Samaritanism likely had association with Dositheanism, making the Community a mix of Jewish and Samaritan beliefs. That's why I classify it as sectarian, because I don't really know what to call it.

The Aquila dimension is interesting. Epiphanius (De Ponderibus et Mensuris, chap. xiii-xvi.; ed. Migne, ii. 259-264) preserves a tradition that he was a kinsman of the Roman emperor Hadrian, who employed him in rebuilding Jerusalem as Aelia Capitolina, and that Aquila was converted to Christianity but, on being reproved for practicing astrology, 'apostatized' to Judaism.
  • (I doubt he would have converted to Christianity but he may have belonged to another Christ-tradition.)

Robert M Price noted that the Clementine Recognitions mentions that Simon Magus had a disciple named Aquila, like Acts’s “John Mark” (Acts 12:12; 15:36-40; 1 Peter 5:13), Aquila leaves the Pauline circle to wind up in the Petrine circle instead. Prices says 'disciples of each apostle are (fictively) traded like ambassadors of two hitherto hostile countries.'
  • Price, Robert M. The Amazing Colossal Apostle: The Search for the Historical Paul (Kindle Locations 6048-6054). Signature Books. Kindle Edition.
Roman 16:3 mentions Priscilla and Aquila and they are elsewhere referred to as associates of Paul (Acts 18:2, 18, 26; 1 Cor. 16:19; 2 Tim. 4:19). Price says the Acts 18:1-4 scene --in which Priscilla and Aquila take Apollo aside and correct his doctrine by a few tweaks-- might reflect the fact that, from the Marcionite perspective, Apelles, Marcion’s disciple, had in later years strayed a bit from Marcionite orthodoxy. It makes it appear that he was finally brought back into the fold by the Simonian Aquila and the prophesying virgin Philumene, whose revelations and instruction Apelles is known to have sought. It is tempting also to identify this Priscilla with the Montanist prophetess Priscilla.
  • Price, Robert M.. The Amazing Colossal Apostle: The Search for the Historical Paul (Kindle Locations 6048-6054). Signature Books. Kindle Edition.
Aquila is definitely a crucial figure. My theory is that Aquila = Marcion = Peregrinus Proteus.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

Post by MrMacSon »

Joseph D. L. wrote: Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:26 am ... I don't take for granted a Christianity in the first century, because that's impossible.
I agree.

Joseph D. L. wrote: Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:26 am
The title "Nazarene" is 'first found' in the Greek texts of the New Testament as an adjective, nazarenos, (Ναζαρηνός) as used in the phrase apo Nazaret "from Nazareth." Overal, the form Nazoraios or Nazaraios (Ναζωραῖος, Ναζαραῖος) is more common in the New Testament than Nazarenos. 

Mishnaic (and modern) Hebrew has notzrim (נוצרים) as a standard Hebrew term for "Christian".

The term "Christians" is said to have been first used at Antioch (Acts 11:26) and Herod Agrippa II is attributed with using it, in Acts 26:28.

"Nazarenes" is used in Acts 24:5, where Paul the Apostle is accused before Felix at Caesarea (the capital of Roman Judaea) by Tertullus.


Epiphanius in Panarion, 29:6,1, says that "the sect of Nasaraeans/Nasaraioi was before Christ and did not know Christ" and distinguished them and the spelling from Nazoraeans.
This is in line with my model, as the Nazarenes evolved into Christianity around the time of Aurelius.

However, Epiphanius saying that Nazarenes existed a hundred years before Jesus (100 bc) or anyone saying that Jesus lived during the time of Alexander Jannaeus, is simply not true ...
I agree that it is very unlikely that 'Nazarenes existed a hundred years before Jesus (100 bc)' or that 'Jesus lived during the time of Alexander Jannaeus', but it's worth noting that Nasaraeans/Nasaraioi may have been different to the Nazarenes that were documented later (You say the Community probably had ties to older traditions, especially if it was Essene, but the Nazarenes only emerged as an autonomous group after Kitos, and probably after bar Kochba).

It's interesting what Jan Machielsen says about inappropriate commentary that merged the therapeutae with the Essenes, and the therapeutae being renamed as 'Jessaeans' by Epiphanius, in a paper available via
ie. there are a lot of agendas that resulted in sects being appropriated and renamed.
Last edited by MrMacSon on Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply