What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

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Secret Alias
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Re: What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

Post by Secret Alias »

From Wikipedia:
The Council of Elvira, a local synod held in Hispania Baetica (part of modern Andalusia) in 306, before Constantine had legitimized Christianity, made it an explicit law that bishops and other clergy should not have sexual relations with their wives. The church canons known as the Ecclesiastical Canons of the Holy Apostles, which appear to have been composed in Syria or Egypt slightly earlier have also been interpreted as imposing a similar obligation

Schaff points out that all marriages contracted by clerics in Holy Orders were declared null and void in 530 by Emperor Justinian I, who also declared the children of such marriages illegitimate.[6]

Schaff also quotes the account that "In the Fifth and Sixth Centuries the law of the celibate was observed by all the Churches of the West, thanks to the Councils and to the Popes. In the Seventh and down to the end of the Tenth Century, as a matter of fact the law of celibacy was little observed in a great part of the Western Church, but as a matter of law the Roman Pontiffs and the Councils were constant in their proclamation of its obligation." This report is confirmed by others too. "Despite six hundred years of decrees, canons, and increasingly harsh penalties, the Latin clergy still did, more or less illegally, what their Greek counterparts were encouraged to do by law—they lived with their wives and raised families. In practice, ordination was not an impediment to marriage; therefore some priests did marry even after ordination."[7] "The tenth century is claimed to be the high point of clerical marriage in the Latin communion. Most rural priests were married and many urban clergy and bishops had wives and children."[8] Then at the Second Lateran Council of 1139 the Roman Church declared that Holy Orders were not merely a prohibitive but a diriment canonical impediment to marriage, therefore making a marriage by priests invalid and not merely forbidden
The point here is that celibacy was regarded as an apostolic precedent.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

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The trajectory again was - apostles left their wives to serve Christ, do the best you can today in the 'modern' landscape.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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John T
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Re: What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

Post by John T »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:44 am
I don't see any evidence that Christian hierarchy was originally designed as ascetic/celibate lifestyle.
I can't think of an example before Demetrius in Severus of Al-Ashumein's Coptic Church history of a married bishop. And Demetrius seems to have been the exception....The point here is that celibacy was regarded as an apostolic precedent.
Precedent customs and canon law are two different things.

Where and when did the local synods precedent custom of celibate unmarried bishops become canon law?

"The Church was a thousand years old before it definitively took a stand in favor of celibacy in the twelfth century at the Second Lateran Council held in 1139, when a rule was approved forbidding priests to marry. In 1563, the Council of Trent reaffirmed the tradition of celibacy."...Helen Owen

https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/696
Last edited by John T on Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
Secret Alias
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Re: What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

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Helen Owen's opinion is obviously based on the love of fucking. It's not a matter of debate when you delve into the minutia. Severus of Al-Ashumein's Coptic Church history confirms that only one bishop - Demetrius, who also happens to be an outsider was married and he confesses that he and his wife never have sex. He even makes her walk into fire in order to prove she is a virgin ... or that he wants another wife.

The Roman tradition needs no introduction. The Marcionite tradition is another. There is no 'Greek tradition' to speak of. Yes there is a claim to the Ephesian tradition but this is non-existent. Whatever other urban center can you really look at? Wherever you look you see unmarried and presumably celibate men in leadership positions.

Getting back to the Alexandrian tradition it is perhaps the strongest along with the Marcionite tradition. Even ritualized castration emerges.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

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Correction she doesn't just defend the fucking. Her credentials are listed at the website as:
Helen L. Owen was an intern at HNN
Very knowledgeable indeed. And she is cited by people who apparently love fucking including Xlibris's Dr. Arnold David Coleman the author of Some Nudity, Porn and Adultery May Be Ok https://books.google.com/books?id=XjoqC ... cy&f=false I can't believe that someone would spend the time to write such a book. It's really quite funny. Catchy title.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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John T
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Re: What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

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Secret Alias wrote: Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:45 am It's not a matter of debate when you delve into the minutia. Severus of Al-Ashumein's Coptic Church history confirms that only one bishop - Demetrius, who also happens to be an outsider was married and he confesses that he and his wife never have sex. He even makes her walk into fire in order to prove she is a virgin ... or that he wants another wife.
Actually, when you delve into the minutia there is a lot to debate.

The Council of Nicea (325 CE) had heated debates on the subject of marriage.

"The ascetic, Paphnutius, who had lost one eye in the Great Persecution, is said to have appeared before the bishops at a critical point in the discussion, "roaring at the top of his voice" that celibacy was impossible for most men and women, and that the council should not impose unnatural burdens on the clergy."

Celibacy was recommended for bishops, but many bishops were also married. In one celebrated case, a Libyan priest nominated to be bishop of Ptolemais told the bishop of Alexandria that he would not accept unless he could continue to have intercourse with his wife. "I shall not be separated from her," he wrote, "nor shall I associate with her surreptitiously like an adulterer...I desire and pray to have virtuous childrren. (Evidently, his request was granted)".
..pg 95, When Jesus Became God by Richard Rubenstein.

Once again, I highly recommend that you read the book; When Jesus Became God.
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
Secret Alias
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Re: What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

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and what would you suggest that this implies about orthodoxy at the time regarding celibacy:
that celibacy was impossible for most men and women, and that the council should not impose unnatural burdens on the clergy."
Instead of becoming a book club ... think about what you read. It really is plain. Don't let the love of fucking ... even your hand ... get in the way of seeing what the evidence naturally suggests.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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John T
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Re: What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

Post by John T »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:58 am ...[is] there any evidence for Christianity being anything but an ascetic religion or at least a structure developed to support monasticism?..I am confident no one will come up with anything but would love to be proved wrong.
Secret Alias would love to be proven wrong? :roll:

I gave several different verifiable examples that proved him wrong.

I can just feel the love coming now. :tomato:
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
Secret Alias
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Re: What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

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So an intern at some random website is authoritative ? Sorry no can do.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
iskander
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Re: What Alternatives Are There to Christianity Being an Ascetic Religion?

Post by iskander »

John T wrote: Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:27 am
Secret Alias wrote: Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:01 am
My own view is that Christianity is a derivative of the Antinous cult
But again, does any of this change the fact there is no evidence to contradict the basic assumption that 'Christianity' as such had a group of leaders who were supported by or lived off a superstitious majority who did not marry and probably were celibate.
Peter had a wife. (Matthew 8:14).
Paul insisted that the church leaders had the right to marry but he chose not to. (1 Corinthians 9:5).

The thinking was, because Jesus would return any second Paul saw no need to be burdened by the obligations of the family life. He was free to move about and preach as he saw fit.

I don't see any evidence that Christian hierarchy was originally designed as ascetic/celibate lifestyle.
Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

John T
Matthew 8:14 and also 1Timothy3:2,5 12. And also Celibacy is not an apostolic tradition:

Matt. 8:14-15
14 When Jesus entered Peter’s house, he saw his mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever; 15he touched her hand, and the fever left her, and she got up and began to serve him.

Tim 3 Qualifications of Bishops
2Now a bishop must be above reproach, married only once temperate, sensible, respectable, hospitable, an apt teacher, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and not a lover of money
...
5for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care of God’s church?

Qualifications of Deacons

12Let deacons be married only once,y and let them manage their children and their households well;


Celibacy and Priesthood
Cardinal William Levada

Archdiocese of Belo Horizonte
November 21, 2011
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... od_en.html
Celibacy: an Apostolic Tradition?
The Second Vatican Council declared that “perfect and perpetual continence for the sake of the kingdom … is not required by the nature of the priesthood.” This is clear from the practice of the early Church and the tradition of the Eastern Churches.” (3)
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