Three different reasons to kill Jesus (if you are one of the 'Rulers of this Age')

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Giuseppe
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Re: Three different reasons to kill Jesus (if you are one of the 'Rulers of this Age')

Post by Giuseppe »

And there is another evidence of the same point:

...only that Marcion says that his god is not feared; maintaining that a good being is not an object of fear, but only a judicial being, in whom reside the grounds of fear— anger, severity, judgments, vengeance, condemnation. But it was from fear, undoubtedly, that the evil spirits were cowed. Therefore they confessed that (Christ) was the Son of a God who was to be feared, because they would have an occasion of not submitting if there were none for fearing. Besides, He showed that He was to be feared, because He drove them out, not by persuasion like a good being, but by command and reproof. Or else did he reprove them, because they were making him an object of fear, when all the while he did not want to be feared? And in what manner did he wish them to go forth, when they could not do so except with fear? So that he fell into the dilemma of having to conduct himself contrary to his nature, whereas he might in his simple goodness have at once treated them with leniency. He fell, too, into another false position — of prevarication, when he permitted himself to be feared by the demons as the Son of the Creator, that he might drive them out, not indeed by his own power, but by the authority of the Creator.

It is so clear that here Tertullian is reporting pure Marcionite thought that there is no need of justification by me.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Three different reasons to kill Jesus (if you are one of the 'Rulers of this Age')

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:02 am It is so simple, that your suspicions regard it betray more your fear that Mcn precedes all the Gospels than a real skepticism about who is of Tertullian and what is not (but this is - obviously - only a my personal suspicion).
What fear? I could not care less which came first. I just want to have good reasons for believing whatever it is I believe about the sequence.
At any rate:

My present discussion is, how the evil spirit could have known that He was called by such a name, when there had never at any time been uttered about Him a single prophecy by a god who was unknown, and up to that time silent, of whom it was not possible for Him to be attested as the Holy One, as (of a god) unknown even to his own Creator. What similar event could he then have published of a new deity, whereby he might betoken for the holy one of the rival god? Simply that he went into the synagogue, and did nothing even in word against the Creator? As therefore he could not by any means acknowledge him, whom he was ignorant of, to be Jesus and the Holy One of God; so did he acknowledge Him whom he knew (to be both). For he remembered how that the prophet had prophesied of the Holy One of God, and how that God's name of Jesus was in the son of Nun.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03124.htm
The line you gave me was:
Giuseppe wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:56 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:20 am That is not what this skepticism is about. My skepticism is in inferring Marcion's exegesis when Marcion's exegesis is not even being quoted, whether by Tertullian or not. "Doubtless you will say" is not actually a quotation or even a paraphrase.
But in this case, Tertullian says us which is the Marcionite exegesis:
Because this one lies in saying that Jesus comes from the god of the Jews

(Tertullian, 4:17).
Which sounds like Marcion is saying that the demoniac ("this one") is lying about Jesus. But now you give me this line:
Simply that he went into the synagogue, and did nothing even in word against the Creator?
Which is not the same line at all, and which sounds nothing like Marcion doing any kind of exegesis on the exorcism. Did you misunderstand what I was asking of you?
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Giuseppe
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Re: Three different reasons to kill Jesus (if you are one of the 'Rulers of this Age')

Post by Giuseppe »

I find the quote (“Because this one lies in saying that Jesus comes from the god of the Jews”) from 4:17 in Couchoud's book, but it is surely an error of translation because there is no in 4:17 that claim. I am curious where is that quote from.

But while I will find it, it is sufficient to make my case this other quote (the occurrence of which I can identify easily):
Therefore they confessed that (Christ) was the Son of a God who was to be feared, because they would have an occasion of not submitting if there were none for fearing
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03124.htm
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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