On the prayer of Jesus alone as a way to separate him from the community

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Giuseppe
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On the prayer of Jesus alone as a way to separate him from the community

Post by Giuseppe »

In the epistles, when the 500 Brothers pray to Jesus, he appeared to them.

After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

When Jesus prayes in the Gospels, he is always alone to pray:



Luke 6:12
12 One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.



Matthew 14:23-25
23 After he had dismissed them, he went up on a mountainside by himself to pray. Later that night, he was there alone, 24 and the boat was already a considerable distance from land, buffeted by the waves because the wind was against it.
25 Shortly before dawn Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake.

Luke 4:42-44
42 At daybreak, Jesus went out to a solitary place. The people were looking for him and when they came to where he was, they tried to keep him from leaving them. 43 But he said, “I must proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent.” 44 And he kept on preaching in the synagogues of Judea.
Mark 1:35
35 Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed.

Mark 6:46
46 After leaving them, he went up on a mountainside to pray.
Luke 9:28
28 About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray.

Mark 1:35
35 Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed.
Luke 6:12-16
12 One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. 13 When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: 14 Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, 15 Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.
John 11:41-42
41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”
Matthew 26:39
39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”
Matthew 26:42
42 He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”

Luke 23:33-34
33 When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”[a] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
Luke 23:44-46
44 It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, 45 for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.”[a] When he had said this, he breathed his last.
If in origin the prayer was always conceived as a dialogue between the entire Christian community and Jesus Christ, later in the Gospels Jesus is alone to pray. So the growing individuality of Jesus is directly proportional to his growing detachment from the community. Insofar Jesus is alone in prayer [=separated from the community], he gets a personality.


Evidently this solitude of Jesus precisely in prayer is a deliberate move by the Evangelists. They knew that the apparitions and hallucinations of Jesus Christ occurred more often during the collective prayer (with the relative 'news' directly by the spiritual Messiah). The Gospel Jesus gained more importance insofar the his distance from the community occurred just during the moment par excellence the community could have usually a direct communication with Jesus: the prayer.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: On the prayer of Jesus alone as a way to separate him from the community

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:59 am In the epistles, when the 500 Brothers pray to Jesus, he appeared to them.

After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

When Jesus prayes in the Gospels, he is always alone to pray
Well, not always. Your list even included an instance from John 11 in which he is deliberately praying surrounded by people. Also, blessing the bread is a form of prayer. But he does have a habit in the gospels of going off by himself to pray.
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Giuseppe
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Re: On the prayer of Jesus alone as a way to separate him from the community

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:22 am Well, not always. Your list even included an instance from John 11 in which he is deliberately praying surrounded by people. Also, blessing the bread is a form of prayer. But he does have a habit in the gospels of going off by himself to pray.
It's not a coincidence that the Gospel of John, one of the later Gospels, tried to describe as close as possible Jesus in the same mythical terms of the original mythological Christ. The natural collateral effect of the operation was to shorten again the distance between Jesus and the community just during the prayer.

Bob Price compared the process to the way the Messianic Secret, introduced by the Earliest Gospel, is via via broken by the later Gospels, to make Jesus ''great again'' and perfectly "known'' in the his pre-existent divine identity.

https://books.google.it/books?redir_esc ... de&f=false
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: On the prayer of Jesus alone as a way to separate him from the community

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Giuseppe wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:49 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:22 am Well, not always. Your list even included an instance from John 11 in which he is deliberately praying surrounded by people. Also, blessing the bread is a form of prayer. But he does have a habit in the gospels of going off by himself to pray.
It's not a coincidence that the Gospel of John, one of the later Gospels, tried to describe as close as possible Jesus in the same mythical terms of the original mythological Christ. The natural collateral effect of the operation was to shorten again the distance between Jesus and the community just during the prayer.

Bob Price compared the process to the way the Messianic Secret, introduced by the Earliest Gospel, is via via broken by the later Gospels, to make Jesus ''great again'' and perfectly "known'' in the his pre-existent divine identity.

https://books.google.it/books?redir_esc ... de&f=false
I can read and understand what Robert M. Price is saying, but I honestly have no idea what your point is, nor how it connects with what Price is saying.
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Giuseppe
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Re: On the prayer of Jesus alone as a way to separate him from the community

Post by Giuseppe »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:20 am
I can read and understand what Robert M. Price is saying, but I honestly have no idea what your point is, nor how it connects with what Price is saying.
you have pointed out the fact that only John 11, in the passages quoted by me above, is the only exception where a Gospel Jesus isn't praying alone (apart the blessing of the bread). I am saying that it is not a coincidence that Jesus is praying not alone just in one of the last Gospels (as GJohn is), against the rule in the previous and earlier Gospels. Because if the last Gospels are trying to increase their Christology (just as Bob Price say, in order to describe Christ again as much as possible as the celestial Christ of the Origins, with the only difference that now he is on the earth), so an expected collateral effect of the operation (=the later increasing of the christology) is to describe Jesus while he is praying in the middle of the disciples, and not more separated from the his disciples. In essentia: to shorten again the distance between the Jesus who prayes and the community, against the separation (of the Jesus who prayes from the community ) made by the earliest Gospels.

So, a Jesus who prayes alone is "low" christologically speaking.

So, a Jesus who prayes in the middle of the disciples is "high" christologically speaking.

In this comparison, the Paul's Jesus appeared to 500 brothers (presumably, after or during their COLLECTIVE prayer) is the "highest" Jesus in christological terms.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: On the prayer of Jesus alone as a way to separate him from the community

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Giuseppe wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:19 amSo, a Jesus who prayes alone is "low" christologically speaking.

So, a Jesus who prayes in the middle of the disciples is "high" christologically speaking.
That makes no sense to me.
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Giuseppe
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Re: On the prayer of Jesus alone as a way to separate him from the community

Post by Giuseppe »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:21 am
Giuseppe wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:19 amSo, a Jesus who prayes alone is "low" christologically speaking.

So, a Jesus who prayes in the middle of the disciples is "high" christologically speaking.
That makes no sense to me.
I am saying that a Jesus who prayes alone is "low" christologically as he is separated from the collective prayer of the community. Against the fact that the Risen Christ appeared in all his majesty to more than a person (precisely: to 500 brothers) much probably during their collective prayer (according to any modern experience of religious apparitions: the more apt moment to have a collective hallucination en masse of the worshipped deity).

Therefore it is strongly expected that a Gospel with a high christology (like GJohn) describes a Jesus who prayes in the middle of the community.

Therefore it is strongly expected that a Gospel with a low christology (like Mark) describes a Jesus who prayes separated from the community.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: On the prayer of Jesus alone as a way to separate him from the community

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:33 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:21 am
Giuseppe wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:19 amSo, a Jesus who prayes alone is "low" christologically speaking.

So, a Jesus who prayes in the middle of the disciples is "high" christologically speaking.
That makes no sense to me.
I am saying that a Jesus who prayes alone is "low" christologically as he is separated from the collective prayer of the community. Against the fact that the Risen Christ appeared in all his majesty to more than a person (precisely: to 500 brothers) much probably during their collective prayer (according to any modern experience of religious apparitions: the more apt moment to have a collective hallucination en masse of the worshipped deity).

Therefore it is strongly expected that a Gospel with a high christology (like GJohn) describes a Jesus who prayes in the middle of the community.

Therefore it is strongly expected that a Gospel with a low christology (like Mark) describes a Jesus who prayes separated from the community.
Yes, I understand what you are trying to say, but it makes no sense to me. You may as well be arguing how people who wear brown shoes are more likely to be serial killers: I would understand what you are trying to say, but it would make no sense to me what serial killing has to do with shoe color preference.
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Giuseppe
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Re: On the prayer of Jesus alone as a way to separate him from the community

Post by Giuseppe »

I remember en passant that a Jesus who prayes alone in Gethsemani is, according to GNicodemus, just the Jesus who persuades definitely Satan about the mere humanity of Jesus and moves him to kill Jesus not knowing who he really is.

For I know that he is a man, and I heard him also saying, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death

http://www.clerus.org/clerus/dati/2001-03/22-13/1L.html

So even Satan supports my view: who prayes alone is necessarily not a divine being. :)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
robert j
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Re: On the prayer of Jesus alone as a way to separate him from the community

Post by robert j »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:15 am So even Satan supports my view ...

... the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world. (Revelation 12:9, NASB)

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