Setne Khamwas and Si-Osire (Setne 2) and the Gospels

[nightshadetwine]

I'm wondering if anybody is familiar with the Egyptian tale "Setne Khamwas and Si-Osire (Setne 2)" or knows of any sources that compare it to the Gospel stories? I see some parallels between this story and the gospels, I think it dates to around the 1st century CE. The mother and father of Si-Osire are told by a god that they will give birth to a son who will "do great things" just like Mary and Joseph. When Si-Osire is 12 years old he seems to know more than his teachers just like Jesus. Also in the story Si-Osire shows his father what happens to a rich man in the afterlife and what happens to the poor man just like the parable in Luke. Here's a quote from "Ancient Egyptian Literature: Volume 3: The Late Period" by Miriam Lichtheim":

H. Gressmann's penetrating study, "Vom reichen Mann und armen Lazarus", has made it plausible that the contrasting
scenes of the richly buried nobleman who is tortured in the netherworld and the cursorily buried poor man who becomes
an honored nobleman in the netherworld were genuinely Egyptian motifs that formed the basis for the parable of Jesus in
Luke 16, 19-31, and for the related Jewish legends, preserved in many variants in Talmudic and medieval Jewish sources.

Here's some quotes from the Egyptian story and the Gospels:

Setne Khamwas and Si-Osire (Setne 2):

(1,1)-----[One night] she dreamed that one spoke to her, [saying:"Are] you Mehusekhe, [the wife] of
Setne, who is lying [here in the temple] so as to recieve healing?----[When tomorrow has come] go to
[the place where your husband] Setne bathes. You will find a melon vine grown there. [break off a branch]
with it's gourds and grind it. [Make it into] a remedy, put it in [in water and drink it]---[you will recieve
the fluid of conception] from him that [night].
Mehusekhe awoke [from] the dream in which she had seen these things. She acted in accordance with
(5) [everything she had been told in the dream. She lay down by] the side of her husband [Setne]. She
received [the fluid of] conception from him. When [her time of purification came she had] the sign
[of a women who has concieved. It was announced to Setne, and] his heart was very happy on account of
it. He [hung] an amulet [on her] and recited a spell to her.
One night Setne slept [and dreamed that one spoke] to him, saying: "Mehusekhe, your wife, has received
[the fluid of conception from you]. The boy that shall be born [shall be named] Si-Osire. Many are [the
wonders that he shall do in Egypt." Setne awoke] from the dream in which he had seen these things. [and his
heart was very happy.
[Mehusekhe] made [her months of pregnancy]----[When her time of bearing] she bore a male child. When Setne
was informed of it [he named him] Si-Osire, in accordance with what had been said in the dream.---(10)---, they
cradled him and nursed him.

Luke 1:26:38 and Matthew 1:20-25

26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin
pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and
said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the
angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give
birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.
The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”
34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a
child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”
38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.

But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said,
“Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived
in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name
Jesus,[f] because he will save his people from their sins.”
22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will
conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[g] (which means “God with us”).
24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as
his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave
him the name Jesus.

Setne Khamwas and Si-Osire (Setne 2):

He grew big and strong; he was put in school. [After a short time he surpassed] the
scribe who had been given him for instruction. The boy Si-Osiri began to recite writings
with the scribes of the House Of Life in the [temple of ptah]. All who heard him thought him
the wonder of the land. Setne wished very much [to have him] taken to the banquet before
Pharaoh,---and to present him to all---
[When the] boy Si-Osire [reached] twelve years of age, it came to pass that there was no [scribe and
learned man] in Memphis [who could compare] with him.

Luke 2 41-47 and 52:

41 Every year Jesus’ parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover.
42 When he was twelve years old, they went up to the festival, according to the
custom. 43 After the festival was over, while his parents were returning home,
the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44 Thinking
he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for
him among their relatives and friends. 45 When they did not find him, they went
back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46 After three days they found him in the
temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them
questions. 47 Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his
answers.
52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

Setne Khamwas and Si-Osire (Setne 2):

He looked [down from the window] of his house [and saw the coffin of a rich man] being carried out to
the cemetery with [very loud]wailing.---, and great were the honors---.[in another moment] as he was looking
down, he saw [the body of a poor man being carried out of memphis] wrapped (only) in a mat---without anyone
walking behind him.
(20) [Si Osire said to his father: "May it go with you in the netherworld] as it will go with this poor man in
the netherworld! [May it not go with you as it will go with this rich man] in the netherworld!"

[Ben C. Smith]

I have definitely seen that tale discussed in light of Luke's parable of Dives and Lazarus. You might try The Afterlife Imagery in Luke's Story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, by Outi Lehtipuu, on that score, but that book is not alone by any means.

So far as Jesus' precociously prodigious childhood is concerned, there is a similar motif in Josephus' Life, IIRC, so that motif may simply be a common one.

[nightshadetwine]

I have definitely seen that tale discussed in light of Luke's parable of Dives and Lazarus. You might try The Afterlife Imagery in Luke's Story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, by Outi Lehtipuu, on that score, but that book is not alone by any means.

Thanks, I'll check that out.

So far as Jesus' precociously prodigious childhood is concerned, there is a similar motif in Josephus' Life, IIRC, so that motif may simply be a common one.

This is what I'm wondering, if this is a motif that you find in myths and stories during that era. Specifically the age 12 thing. Does Josephus mention age 12? I know that the motif of a woman receiving a prophecy that she is going to give birth to a savior or hero is something you find in a lot of myths.

[Ben C. Smith]

I have definitely seen that tale discussed in light of Luke's parable of Dives and Lazarus. You might try The Afterlife Imagery in Luke's Story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, by Outi Lehtipuu, on that score, but that book is not alone by any means.

Thanks, I'll check that out.

So far as Jesus' precociously prodigious childhood is concerned, there is a similar motif in Josephus' Life, IIRC, so that motif may simply be a common one.

This is what I'm wondering, if this is a motif that you find in myths and stories during that era. Specifically the age 12 thing. Does Josephus mention age 12? I know that the motif of a woman receiving a prophecy that she is going to give birth to a savior or hero is something you find in a lot of myths.

No, Josephus specifies that he was 14.

[Ben C. Smith]

But... Josephus also specifies that Josiah was twelve years old when he set the nation straight; he also specifies that the boy king corrected his predecessors in the process. Not sure what that does for us.

[nightshadetwine]

Also found this https://www.ancient.eu/article/1054/the ... nce-setna/

The stories have influenced many later writers and important works of literature. Herodotus cites Setna as the high priest Sethos in one of his best-known passages regarding the troops of the Assyrian king Sennacherib defeated by mice who gnaw through their equipment while they sleep (Histories II. 141). This passage is his version of the story told in the biblical book of II Kings 19:35 in which an angel of the Lord destroys the Assyrian army laying siege to Jerusalem. The sequence from Setna II in which Setna and his son Si-Osire travel to the underworld draws upon Greek mythology and influences later Christian scripture in the story of the rich and poor man in the afterlife.

The contrast of the rich and poor man in life and death, later skillfully used by the author of the Book of Luke, illustrates the importance of the central value of ancient Egypt: observance of ma'at. There was nothing wrong, per se, in having riches. Pharaoh, after all, was quite wealthy and yet no one doubted the king would find himself justified in the afterlife and continue on to the Field of Reeds. The autobiographies and tomb inscriptions of plenty of wealthy ancient Egyptians, from different eras, express the same confidence.

What should be noted in this section of the story is what brings the two men to their respective fates: the poor man did "good works" while the rich man's misdeeds were greater than his good ones. This would have been understood as the difference between keeping ma'at as one's focus in life or putting one's self first before the good of others. The rich man would not have been punished for his wealth but for his selfishness and lack of concern for ma'at. In Setna I, the prince learns his lesson about taking what does not belong to him; in the second Setna, one sees in the rich man's fate what happens to those who do not learn that lesson.

[nightshadetwine]

Just found this http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/c ... 3&partId=1

Papyrus; On verso: Demotic text of Tale of Setne (II); recto : Greek text of land-registers from Crocodilopolis, dated to Year 7 of Claudius (46-7 AD). Setne-Khaemwaset II

So this Egyptian tale predates the gospels. The gospel writers were probably familiar with tales like this. There's too many similarities for it to just be coincidence.