"But not during the festival"...

[John T]

Both Judas and Pilate are considered to be crucial supporters of the Christ in Gnostic philosophies. This only serves to go along with your complete ignorance as to what Gnosticism was, as well as the origins of these traditions.

Oooh! We have an expert on Gnosticism here on the forum.

So, let's ask the expert about Gnosticism.

Joseph D.L.,

1. Please define the meaning of 'crucial supporter'.

2. Are you saying Pilate was a Gnostic, if so, what proof do you have?

3. What is the difference between Gnosticism and mythicistism?

We the completely ignorant, await your clarification.

[Joseph D. L.]

I will set aside my previous comment about ignoring you on this forum for this one addressing. Think of it as you using your golden ticket. Afterward, I will neither read nor respond to anything you say. Whereas my issue with Giuseppe is his unwavering trust in less than reputable sources, at least he's not the arrogant egomaniac you are.

1. Please define the meaning of 'crucial supporter'.

2. Are you saying Pilate was a Gnostic, if so, what proof do you have?

3. What is the difference between Gnosticism and mythicistism?

We the completely ignorant, await your clarification.

1) Judas and Pilate are both crucial in the role of salvation, because it is only through Jesus's death that salvation becomes possible. Hence why Gnostics such as the Sethians honoured him above the disciples. Giuseppe's theory about Judas and Pilate being only there to shift blame completely ignores that fact. Jesus had to die; Jesus says he has to die. So how then are the people responsible for killing him considered allegorical of evil spirits, or Jewish propaganda?

2) Pilate is a Gnostic allegory. No, Pilate himself wasn't a Gnostic, a Christian, or a Jewish sympathizer, even though his wife is made out to be in apocryphal traditions. But the Pilate insofar as the Christian tradition is concerned with, satisfies the same role that Paul has. Is it just a coincidence that both Pilate and Marcion have nautical themes about themselves? with Pilate's name meaning Mariner.

Paul and Pilate thus became analogous to the same idea, that after the disciples abandon Christ, Pilate alone finds no fault in him.

3) There is a world of difference between Gnosticism and mythicism.

Gnosticism is concerned with religious and otherworldly knowledge. Gnosticism exists in all religions, and is not limited to one kind of expression. Even Catholicism is Gnostic, because it bestows otherworldly knowledge to its followers.

Mythicism, conversely, is concerned with scepticism and denial of Jesus Christ as a historical personage. That definition can vary from each person who holds to that view, but that is all it is concerned with. Mythicists can express Gnostic views, but mythicism is not Gnosticism. Just like how all ducks are birds, but not all birds are ducks.

There is nothing more I care to discuss with you.

[Giuseppe]

Giuseppe's theory about Judas and Pilate being only there to shift blame completely ignores that fact. Jesus had to die; Jesus says he has to die. So how then are the people responsible for killing him considered allegorical of evil spirits, or Jewish propaganda?

Evidently you ignore what I have called the 'Stuart's Law' for the his splendid definition:

Once an element is accepted as part of the story, rather than drop it if it conflicts with your theology, you flip it to match your theology. This is a spot on observation!

[Joseph D. L.]

So I ignore some arbitrary "law" that only you adhere to and invented a month ago, and that even its namesake completely rebuked your support of.

It's not even that spot on. It's a basic evolutionary strategy that many religions practiced.

You've also completely destroyed your own base by suggesting that a Jesus's preordained death was a later inversion. If so, then a historical Jesus suddenly becomes many times more likely than an allegorical one.

[Giuseppe]

You've also completely destroyed your own base by suggesting that a Jesus's preordained death was a later inversion. If so, then a historical Jesus suddenly becomes many times more likely than an allegorical one.

that was an idea held without much conviction and even abandoned. My only perennial certainty is the absence of a HJ in the epistles (basically for Wells/Doherty/Carrier's arguments) and the Couchoud's solution of the enigma Barabbas. About the rest I change always ideas.

[Joseph D. L.]

Giuseppe, you don't ever seem to change and evolve. You seem to constantly go back and forth between yourself and some hitherto obscure scholar or writer whom you read and say to yourself " I have always thought this!"

Who cares about the epistles? Their concern is with Paul and his role of Paraclete. There are two historical figures that we can absolutely see fulfilling the role of Jesus, and perhaps both did. But they are irrelevant to the epistles, because that is not their agenda.

Instead of Couchoud, or Ory, or some other unknown person, Schonfeld and Brandon both offer up a completely reasonable explanation for why/how a Jesus predicted his own betrayal. Doherty and Carrier are both hacks.

[John T]

I will set aside my previous comment about ignoring you on this forum for this one addressing. Think of it as you using your golden ticket. Afterward, I will neither read nor respond to anything you say. Whereas my issue with Giuseppe is his unwavering trust in less than reputable sources, at least he's not the arrogant egomaniac you are.

1. Please define the meaning of 'crucial supporter'.

2. Are you saying Pilate was a Gnostic, if so, what proof do you have?

3. What is the difference between Gnosticism and mythicistism?

We the completely ignorant, await your clarification.

1) Judas and Pilate are both crucial in the role of salvation, because it is only through Jesus's death that salvation becomes possible. Hence why Gnostics such as the Sethians honoured him above the disciples. Giuseppe's theory about Judas and Pilate being only there to shift blame completely ignores that fact. Jesus had to die; Jesus says he has to die. So how then are the people responsible for killing him considered allegorical of evil spirits, or Jewish propaganda?

2) Pilate is a Gnostic allegory. No, Pilate himself wasn't a Gnostic, a Christian, or a Jewish sympathizer, even though his wife is made out to be in apocryphal traditions. But the Pilate insofar as the Christian tradition is concerned with, satisfies the same role that Paul has. Is it just a coincidence that both Pilate and Marcion have nautical themes about themselves? with Pilate's name meaning Mariner.

Paul and Pilate thus became analogous to the same idea, that after the disciples abandon Christ, Pilate alone finds no fault in him.

3) There is a world of difference between Gnosticism and mythicism.

Gnosticism is concerned with religious and otherworldly knowledge. Gnosticism exists in all religions, and is not limited to one kind of expression. Even Catholicism is Gnostic, because it bestows otherworldly knowledge to its followers.

Mythicism, conversely, is concerned with scepticism and denial of Jesus Christ as a historical personage. That definition can vary from each person who holds to that view, but that is all it is concerned with. Mythicists can express Gnostic views, but mythicism is not Gnosticism. Just like how all ducks are birds, but not all birds are ducks.

There is nothing more I care to discuss with you.

Your answers have problems.

1. Although you answered the part of 'crucial' you left out 'supporter'. Try to remember that Pilate did not support the death of Jesus and he made that very clear with the washing of his hands. Perhaps you meant crucial role instead of 'crucial supporter'?Also you didn't explain how Judas supported the death of Jesus.

2. Thanks for admitting you have no proof that Pilate was a Gnostic.

3. Gnostics are not atheists. Most mythicists are atheists in disguise. Mythicists that hold Gnostic views are heretics to their faith. You can't be a meat eating vegetarian but you can be a hypocrite.

John T