500 BCE Vase of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ

[Joseph D. L.]

I did not make the argument that Freke and Gandy used the amulet as sole proof. My argument is the image was photo-shopped by Freke and Gandy in order to fool people into thinking it was a real amulet.

Strawman and a brazen accusation with no support.

They even show the real image in their book. It's called promotional material. That image would not be as eye-cathing as the colourized version. And it is a real amulet.

Now that you understand what a straw man argument is please try avoid it in the future because it makes you look like you are trying to be dishonest when you are not.

You're not in a position to tell others to not commit strawman fallacies.

Now onto the greater problem. Did you find any direct evidence that Bacchus the god of wine was crucified on a tree? The answer is no. What you did was find stories about other pagan gods that may or may not have been hung on a tree and tried to connect those stories to Bacchus. Much like saying the story of the Three Little Pigs and the Red Riding Hood came from the story of Beowulf because they all have wolves in them.

Well to begin with, there is no "may or may not" n regards to gods being hung on trees and crosses. Osiris was ritualistically hung on a sycamore tree; Attis on pine trees. Bulls were sacrificed to Mithras and hung on trees. And Dionysus was hung on trees and crosses/stauroi.







In all of the above depictions, as well as many others, Dionysus is indeed placed on a cross: an upright stauros surmounted by a capital.

And what does Virgil say again??? That Bacchus had the same thing done with him--that images of the god were hung on trees and trellises and vineposts.

So, yes, Bacchus WAS hung on a cross. The issue of whether he was "crucified" is a linguistic issue. Crucified just means hung on a stauros. That's it. It's only in our minds, which has predominantly been that of a Christian persuasion, that crucified means hung on a stauros in like manner of Christ. It doesn't.

Inasmuch as the amulet is concerned, which is authentic, it does depict Orpheus being initiated into the Bacchic mysteries by being crucified. It even reads Orpheus becomes Bacchus. So there is no question about what is happening: Orpheus is emulating Bacchus, who was hung on a cross, by doing the same--by hanging on a cross.

That fallacy is called non-sequitur.

No, it is not.

So, the fallacious argument that the Catholic Church is covering up it's track over the photo-shopped, so-called amulet, is not proven.

That is what Ethan said. Not me.

Go learn something.

[John T]

Putting aside your denial of the fallacies in your own arguments let's go back to your implied charge that it is o.k. for mythicists to mislead people in order to sell their books.

If you bought a product that had a picture of what was inside and it turns out not to be anything like it wouldn't you feel ripped off, that you were scammed? Would you trust that company to sell you anything else?

I trust you do know the difference between computer generated cartoons and real photos.

What proof do you have that the cartoon picture on the cover of the book is a faithful representation of a real amulet? Years ago, I compared the picture of the wine seal in the book to the cartoon amulet on the cover and found outright forgery by Freke and Gandy and reported it here on this forum. Even Peter Kirby could not dismiss my findings.

How many real amulets with the same inscription found on the the cartoon picture have Freke and Gandy found?
Answer: None.

Now, go learn something.
Let me know if you find something that actually contradicts my findings.

Until then, I'm done here.

John T

[Giuseppe]

Herodotus 7.26 (Σατυρος επι Σταυρος)
The skin of Marsyas the Silenus also hangs there; the Phrygian story tells that it was flayed off him and hung up by Apollo
Σιληνοῦ Μαρσύεω ἀσκὸς ἀνακρέμαται, τὸν ὑπὸ Φρυγῶν λόγος ἔχει ὑπὸ ἐκδαρέντα ἀνακρεμασθῆναι.

Arthur Drews wrote somewhere that Marsyas the Silenus was another name for Attis.

[andrewcriddle]

Moving on, here are your comments quoted by the author of the page:

The depiction of the crucified figure is medieval rather than Late Antique.
The cross is Latin in shape + as in later depictions of crucifixion rather than the T shaped cross (and other variants) typical before 500 CE.
The depiction of the crucified figure as alone withuot crucifiers co-crucified or devotees is unparalleled in antiquity and only appears later.
The image of the moon and seven stars is very strange but may be a later development of the early symbolic use of the sun and moon in images of the crucifixion with the sun removed in response to the claim in the synoptic Gospels that the sun was darkened.

Here is a link that can address these criticisms better than myself.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... =&ie=UTF-8

Needless to say, these arguments are circular, presuming inauthenticity from the outset.

I discuss the amulet mentioned by Roger Viklund as a possible parallel
http://hypotyposeis.org/weblog/2006/08/ ... image.html

http://hypotyposeis.org/weblog/2006/08/ ... n-gem.html


Andrew Criddle

EDITED TO ADD
See also http://hypotyposeis.org/weblog/2008/03/ ... -gems.html

[Ethan]

You may have noticed that SOLOMON is written as if a plural , Σαλωμων for it derives from Σειληνων.
Silenus is used as a plural to designate Satyr like beings e.g Marsyas, Solomon, Barsabbas and Saul.

1 Samuel 31:10 - They fastened Saul's body to the wall of Bethshan

In the story of Samuel, SAUL takes the role of SILENUS , the forefather of DAVID ( Son of Zeus/Jesse)
and note the absence of David's mother because the mother of Dionysus died before his birth.

Arrian - Anabasis XVI
Heracles was. honored in Tyre many generations before Cadmus set out from Phoenicia and occupied Thebes, and before
Semele, the daughter of Cadmus, was born, from whom Dionysus, the son of Zeus, was born.

Phoenicians occupied central Greece?

[Joseph D. L.]

John T, you are a blithering dunderhead.

For starters, I have seen two variations of the image used by Freke and Gandy. One looks to be a cylinder of some sort, and the other is a small amulet only a few inches tall--the latter of which is actually in their book.

But what is your major evidence that the amulet is fraudulent? Freke and Gandy used a visually enhanced copy of it.

Well blood and thunder if that is not a typical promotional tactic. But you don't argue the authenticity on anything based off of sources, it's history, or anything else. Instead you throw the baby out with the bath water, and anything that isn't a one-hundred percent accurate representation of reality is just beneath you.

Despite the fact that they show the image of the amulet that they are using in a more accurate depiction within their book, you want to crucify them--pun unintended--over what is used on the front of their book. That seems extremely childish, petty, and disingenuous of you.

And other than that, you have absolutely nothing. You have yet to acknowledge the numerous vases provided by both me and Ethan that unambiguously show Dionysus on a cross (Karenyi even describes it as such), and have blatantly ignored the passage from Virgil that says Bacchus too was hung on trees and vineposts. You didn't even bother to respond to my unassailable argument of a clear link between these older forms Dionysus being hung on a cross, and the amulet showing Orpheus himself being hung on a cross. Instead you go off on a tangent about some frivolous point of contention you have with using falsified colourized images of an object that was destroyed in the blitz of WWII, and who's only remaining images are in black and white. Well excuse me if I say that I have better things to contend with at the moment than entertaining every form of facetious arguing, pompous rhetoric, and reactionary behaviour that you would make.

I believe the term rhymes with "pluck yew".

[John T]

John T, you are a blithering dunderhead.

But what is your major evidence that the amulet is fraudulent? Freke and Gandy used a visually enhanced copy of it.

Already asked and answered.
But since this will be may last post on this thread I will go over it one last time.

1. The image provided by Ethan (page one of this thread) titled, Orpheus Bacchus, is not real. It comes from a book cover, "The Jesus Mysteries".
2. The picture on the book cover is not an actual photo of a tangible item like an amulet but a computerized cartoon enhanced image to make it look like it is real. Much like the cover of a romance novel.
3. The cartoon is not based on a real amulet but most likely a logo/seal of a wine jug. Meaning it had no religious function like a Saint Christopher medal but rather like a trade logo stamped/sealed on a jug for easy identification of the company that made the wine.
4. The writing on the cartoon is not the same as the wine seal in the book.
5. The item in the book is no longer available for scholars to verify the authenticity and/or age.

Now, if you can arrogantly dismiss the evidence of deception with the cover of the book how can I possibly convince you of all the errors inside the mythcist book?

A mythicist is going to believe what a mythicist wants to believe or should I say what they want you to believe?

With that, I am done with this thread but for those that want to learn more about the hoax of the mythicist movement I suggest you read (for starters) Bart Ehrman's book, "Did Jesus Exist?".

John T

[Jax]

Did Jesus Exist? by Ehrman is a fetid, steaming pile of dog droppings.

[Giuseppe]

A question: assuming that the gem is a forgery, who could made it and why? Were there mythicists (more precisely, mythicists who would have liked "to prove" the pagan origins of Christianity) already in the Middle Age?

[Ethan]

The origins of Christianity is irrelevant and instead the focus should be the origin of Bacchus-Dionysus
for they are competing theories and it's possible it may originated in Ancient Italy ( NOT Roman Italy)
but the real Italy of the Etruscan. ( People of the wine-press).

-Phoenician-
Baca (בקע) "To cleft"
Baca (בכא) "mulberry"
Baca (בכה) "Bacchus"

-Etruscan-
Faca "to cleft" [az96]
Baca "Berry" [lrp 57]
Paxa "Bacchus" [g/lb83]