500 BCE Vase of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ

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John T
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Re: 500 BCE Vase of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ

Post by John T »

Joseph D. L. wrote: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:28 pm Quite the reactionary response. No one, not even Freke and Gandy, has used the amulet as sole proof for pagan parallel arguments.
Quite the straw man argument you got going there.

Do you have any evidence that Bacchus was crucified on a tree?

Bacchus was the Roman god of agriculture, wine and fertility who ran among the trees. He is hung on a tree with wine jugs under his feet not as a reminder that he was crucified but of what he is the guardian of, that is trees and vineyards. :banghead:

D.M. Murdock garbage = Acharya S. garbage. :roll:
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Ethan
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Re: 500 BCE Vase of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ

Post by Ethan »

Herodotus 7.26 (Σατυρος επι Σταυρος)
The skin of Marsyas the Silenus also hangs there; the Phrygian story tells that it was flayed off him and hung up by Apollo
Σιληνοῦ Μαρσύεω ἀσκὸς ἀνακρέμαται, τὸν ὑπὸ Φρυγῶν λόγος ἔχει ὑπὸ ἐκδαρέντα ἀνακρεμασθῆναι.

Image
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
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John T
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Re: 500 BCE Vase of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ

Post by John T »

Ethan wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:57 am Herodotus 7.26 (Σατυρος επι Σταυρος)
The skin of Marsyas the Silenus also hangs there; the Phrygian story tells that it was flayed off him and hung up by Apollo
Σιληνοῦ Μαρσύεω ἀσκὸς ἀνακρέμαται, τὸν ὑπὸ Φρυγῶν λόγος ἔχει ὑπὸ ἐκδαρέντα ἀνακρεμασθῆναι.

Image
I am really impressed with the quality of pictures you provide and the Greek lettering.
Is it time consuming or easy peasy for you?


Sincerely,

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
Ethan
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Re: 500 BCE Vase of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ

Post by Ethan »

John T wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:32 pm
Ethan wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:57 am Herodotus 7.26 (Σατυρος επι Σταυρος)
The skin of Marsyas the Silenus also hangs there; the Phrygian story tells that it was flayed off him and hung up by Apollo
Σιληνοῦ Μαρσύεω ἀσκὸς ἀνακρέμαται, τὸν ὑπὸ Φρυγῶν λόγος ἔχει ὑπὸ ἐκδαρέντα ἀνακρεμασθῆναι.

Image
I am really impressed with the quality of pictures you provide and the Greek lettering.
Is it time consuming or easy peasy for you?


Sincerely,

John T
I use Perseus
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/search
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
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John T
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Re: 500 BCE Vase of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ

Post by John T »

Thanks for the links.

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: 500 BCE Vase of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ

Post by Joseph D. L. »

John T wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:25 am
Joseph D. L. wrote: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:28 pm Quite the reactionary response. No one, not even Freke and Gandy, has used the amulet as sole proof for pagan parallel arguments.
Quite the straw man argument you got going there?
You should learn what a strawman argument is, because not only did I not make one, you yourself made one.

I never said that Bacchus was crucified. I said that he, like his Grecian counterpart, had rites that involved hanging images of him on tress.

It’s for no other crime that a goat is sacrificed to Bacchus

on every altar, and that the old tragedies arrived on stage,

and the people of Theseus set up tributes to genius, in the villages

and at the crossroads, and danced joyfully in the soft meadows,

among the wine-cups, on the oiled goat-skin.

Likewise the Ausonian farmers, a people out of Troy,

act out rough verses, with unrestrained laughter,

and wear fearful faces, hollowed from bark,

and call to you, Bacchus, in joyful song, and hang

tender little masks on the tall pine-trees.

Then every vineyard ripens with plentiful fruit,

richness fills hollow valleys and deep glades,

and wherever else the god has turned his handsome face.

As you can see, the Dionysian festival of Lenaia had survived until Virgil's day, in which the rites had been syncretized with those of Bacchus.

What I said was that the amulet showed Orpheus being inducted into the mysteries of Bacchus by being crucified with him, and the aforeshown stamnoi, as well as the above quoted Virgil, give witness to the effect that Dionysus/Bacchus were hung on stauroi and trees.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: 500 BCE Vase of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ

Post by Joseph D. L. »

No, it is not just a reminder of Dionysus's role as Lord of the vine, but a continuation of the Osiris cycle and ritual that involved Osiris being shut up in a sycamore tree and resurrected through the dd-pillar.

Not only that, but both Osiris and Attis had themselves become syncretized with Dionysus, and were resurrected through trees.

The idol of Dionysus itself was created, not as some reminder, as some memorial, of Dionysus, but as a way for him to participate in the Lenaia. The mask, the ultimate symbol of Dionysus, contained the very essence of the god. When the idol was furnished and the mask placed upon it, Dionysus would return to the world.

This isn't from Murdock. This is from Karl Kerenyi and Walter Burkert.
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Re: 500 BCE Vase of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ

Post by andrewcriddle »

There are at least real doubts about the authenticity of the Orpheus amulet
See for example http://www.bede.org.uk/orpheus.htm

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: 500 BCE Vase of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ

Post by Joseph D. L. »

So what are the arguments of nonauthenticity? A few people said it was fake, and Freke and Gandy colourized a black and white picture for promotional reasons...

I don't have the wherewithal to respond to every point brought up, so I'll just go over the points you mentioned, and a few others.

Starting out, all sources, including Freke and Gandy, that do grant it as authentic also state that it is from late Roman antiquity, roughly 300 ad. This means it is far too late for someone like Justin to mention.

Also, the article states that Justin actively contradicts such a belief being present. This is a ludicrous statement for many reasons...

1) Justin is not gathering and categorizing ancient religious traditions
2) Justin never mentions the Lenaia festival in which an image of Dionysus is hung on a cross
3) In Ch. 55 of his Fist Apology, gives numerous comparisons between the cross of Christ and pagan religious symbols

Moving on, here are your comments quoted by the author of the page:
The depiction of the crucified figure is medieval rather than Late Antique.
The cross is Latin in shape + as in later depictions of crucifixion rather than the T shaped cross (and other variants) typical before 500 CE.
The depiction of the crucified figure as alone withuot crucifiers co-crucified or devotees is unparalleled in antiquity and only appears later.
The image of the moon and seven stars is very strange but may be a later development of the early symbolic use of the sun and moon in images of the crucifixion with the sun removed in response to the claim in the synoptic Gospels that the sun was darkened.
Here is a link that can address these criticisms better than myself.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... =&ie=UTF-8

Needless to say, these arguments are circular, presuming inauthenticity from the outset.

But where does this leave the amulet?

Here's an analogy: there is an argument that Attis was himself crucified/hung on a pine tree. There are small figurines of Attis bound to a tree trunk, dated to the second and third centuries, while there is a later depiction of Attis in a fir tree, and Ovid had recorded that Attis was sealed in a tree. Since Ovid is the earliest witness, does that make his account authentic and the other two fraudulent? No. Religion doesn't work like. The fourth century image of Attis in a fir tree is the natural progression of such mythotypes.

The amulet is the same thing. There were already traditions in which Dionysus and Bacchus were hung on stauroi. The depiction on the amulet is a natural progression of that mythotype.

The amulet is late. There's no question about it. But is it a forgery? No.
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John T
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Re: 500 BCE Vase of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ

Post by John T »

Joseph D. L. wrote: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:28 pm Quite the reactionary response. No one, not even Freke and Gandy, has used the amulet as sole proof for pagan parallel arguments.
I still maintain that is a straw man argument and here's why.

First the definition:

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man." The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.[2][3]...wiki

I did not make the argument that Freke and Gandy used the amulet as sole proof. My argument is the image was photo-shopped by Freke and Gandy in order to fool people into thinking it was a real amulet.

Now that you understand what a straw man argument is please try avoid it in the future because it makes you look like you are trying to be dishonest when you are not.

Now onto the greater problem. Did you find any direct evidence that Bacchus the god of wine was crucified on a tree? The answer is no. What you did was find stories about other pagan gods that may or may not have been hung on a tree and tried to connect those stories to Bacchus. Much like saying the story of the Three Little Pigs and the Red Riding Hood came from the story of Beowulf because they all have wolves in them.

That fallacy is called non-sequitur.

So, the fallacious argument that the Catholic Church is covering up it's track over the photo-shopped, so-called amulet, is not proven.

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
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