New Shroud Test Looks Like a Win For Sanity at the Moment

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semiopen
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New Shroud Test Looks Like a Win For Sanity at the Moment

Post by semiopen »

New forensic tests suggest Shroud of Turin is fake

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo ... spartanntp

Just noticed this on MSN, so making a rare appearance in the Christian forum.
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rakovsky
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Re: New Shroud Test Looks Like a Win For Sanity at the Moment

Post by rakovsky »

"When the volunteer was in (various reclining positions) the blood movement never matched the Shroud," said the study.
1. Maybe the limbs were not in a reclining position when the blood dripped from them?

2. If the Shroud is a fake, it is still a very interesting fake, because of questions like how exactly it was created. Different answers have been proposed, and they differ among even groups of both shroud "skeptics" and shroud "believers".

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
jude77
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Re: New Shroud Test Looks Like a Win For Sanity at the Moment

Post by jude77 »

The Shroud is certainly one of the most fascinating religious objects in the world (well, the Shroud and Thomas Aquinas' finger). One thing that I love about it, is that it is just soooooooo strange.
semiopen
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Re: New Shroud Test Looks Like a Win For Sanity at the Moment

Post by semiopen »

I'm a big shroud fan, even though I totally reject it's authenticity.

Regarding the specific tests mentioned in the article, I doubt if they drive the final nail in the coffin (tee hee). But the high resolution photography is interesting.

You've got to wonder why there was any blood at all on the body since it's supposed to washed clean -

Tahara, Preparing the Body for Burial https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/tahara/
A Jewish ritual cleansing of the deceased fulfills the verse from Ecclesiastes 5:14, "As we come forth, so we shall return."
Before the body is buried, it is washed in a ritual act of purification called tahara . Just as a baby is washed and enters the world clean and pure, so do we leave the world cleansed by the religious act of tahara.
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JoeWallack
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The Flat Shroud Society FCM Moon Fragment

Post by JoeWallack »

semiopen wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:19 am New forensic tests suggest Shroud of Turin is fake

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo ... spartanntp

Just noticed this on MSN, so making a rare appearance in the Christian forum.
JW:
The Shroud long ago failed every standard forensic test for evidence of blood:

John Heller's Catechism-22
The bulk of the book consists of McCrone explaining the necessity, procedures, analysis and conclusions of scientific testing of the Shroud in terms easily understandable to the non-scientist and this is where McCrone excels as in addition to superior scientific skills he displays supreme communication skills as a teacher as well. McCrone proves through the use of state of the art microscopic technology that the Shroud image consists almost entirely of paint pigments popular in the 14th century. While generally conceding that there is some paint pigment on the Shroud, supporters of the Shroud deny that the image is a painting because there is no evidence of brushstrokes when examined microscopically. To answer this objection McCrone demonstrated that if the paint was sufficiently diluted in a water base there would be no detectable brushstrokes. McCrone recreated shrouds using the same paint materials used on the Shroud and reported that there were no visible brushstrokes on the recreations and that under the microscope the particles were identical between the recreations and the Shroud and challenged any Shroud supporter to try and tell the difference (a challenge which is still untaken). McCrone next demonstrated that there is no actual blood in the "blood" image areas of the Shroud. Dried blood under the microscope is always black but the blood areas of the Shroud were red. Chemical analysis of the blood image areas also indicated that they lacked major chemical components of blood such as potassium. Shroud supporters, such as Heller, conclude that the blood image areas are blood because they contain some chemical components of blood such as calcium and iron but they ignore that paint pigments also contain calcium and iron. When asked to explain why the usual tests for the presence of blood fail here, such as black color and existence of potassium, they explain that the explanation is some unknown process (ignore/deny).
There is no evidence that The Shroud is 1st century so Believers in The Shroud's authenticity fall into the category of Conspiracy Theorists like Kevin Barrett:

Dr. Kevin Barrett and Gilad Atzmon on Phobias and Politics
While ordinary Western people have no rational reason for Islamophobia, Zionist and neoliberal elites have good reasons to fear Islam. Muslims are the backbone of opposition to Zionism and usury, both of which are crucial to the neoliberal financier elites. To the extent that Islam triumphs, the Zionists and usury banksters will lose their ill-gotten gains along with most of their power and privileges. So the Zionist elite's decision to orchestrate 9/11 in order to brainwash ordinary people into irrationally hating Islam was indeed rational, given that elite's desire to maintain and expand its power and privileges.

Joseph

The New Porphyry
semiopen
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Re: New Shroud Test Looks Like a Win For Sanity at the Moment

Post by semiopen »

The blood test history is very interesting. There was a forensic test done by an Italian cop who thought it was type AB which was confirmed by similar tests on the shmata of Oviedo Sudarium_of_Oviedo. Forensic anthropologists later refuted this, although one might think that the AB claim would raise a bunch of red flags (just can't help it today) since type AB probably didn't exist in that part of the world at that time.

I'm not sure if McCrone's work is absolutely convincing. He's undoubtedly on the correct side of the debate, but my impression (from several years ago) is that the shroudies were landing decent counter punches on some of his arguments.

Part of the charm of all this is that the science is so obscure.
semiopen
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Re: New Shroud Test Looks Like a Win For Sanity at the Moment

Post by semiopen »

Apparently, John says there was no time to wash the body before Shabbat. That seems dubious to me but the creator of the Shroud had to work with the material he had.

Haven't actually looked at the state of things with the Shroud for many years. I had been under the impression that the blood tests were invalid because of the age of the samples, which had moved research towards looking at DNA.

Shroud_of_Turin
Working independently, forensic pathologist Pier Luigi Baima Bollone concurred with Heller and Adler's findings and identified the blood as the AB blood group.[99]
This is the cop I mentioned in a previous post. I would bet money that this result is wrong, but the wiki doesn't mention any controversy. McCrone's work, of course, is more highly regarded; if there is no blood it is certainly not type AB, but I've been more interested in how an apparently honest attempt to test the blood type could have yielded a result of AB.

This comment from the Talk page brought back some memories. -
"The blood on the Shroud is real, human male blood of the type AB (typed by Dr. Baima Ballone in Turin and confirmed in the U.S.)... Drs. Victor and Nancy Tryon of the University of Texas Health Science Center found X & Y chromosomes representing male blood and "degraded DNA" (approximately 700 base pairs) "consistent with the supposition of ancient blood." [1] [2]
Victor Tryon is an actual Dr while Vicky was a research assistant. There was an important article in Time about "their" research. I think I posted a detailed analysis in FRDB but the archive search doesn't seem to work. Vicky was quite a piece of work if I remember correctly.
andrewcriddle
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Re: New Shroud Test Looks Like a Win For Sanity at the Moment

Post by andrewcriddle »

semiopen wrote: Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:03 am Apparently, John says there was no time to wash the body before Shabbat. That seems dubious to me but the creator of the Shroud had to work with the material he had.

Haven't actually looked at the state of things with the Shroud for many years. I had been under the impression that the blood tests were invalid because of the age of the samples, which had moved research towards looking at DNA.

Shroud_of_Turin
Working independently, forensic pathologist Pier Luigi Baima Bollone concurred with Heller and Adler's findings and identified the blood as the AB blood group.[99]
This is the cop I mentioned in a previous post. I would bet money that this result is wrong, but the wiki doesn't mention any controversy. McCrone's work, of course, is more highly regarded; if there is no blood it is certainly not type AB, but I've been more interested in how an apparently honest attempt to test the blood type could have yielded a result of AB.

This comment from the Talk page brought back some memories. -
"The blood on the Shroud is real, human male blood of the type AB (typed by Dr. Baima Ballone in Turin and confirmed in the U.S.)... Drs. Victor and Nancy Tryon of the University of Texas Health Science Center found X & Y chromosomes representing male blood and "degraded DNA" (approximately 700 base pairs) "consistent with the supposition of ancient blood." [1] [2]
Victor Tryon is an actual Dr while Vicky was a research assistant. There was an important article in Time about "their" research. I think I posted a detailed analysis in FRDB but the archive search doesn't seem to work. Vicky was quite a piece of work if I remember correctly.
Google lists some old posts by semiopen about the shroud.
https://www.google.com/search?lr=&as_qd ... ms2lv_xlxg
I'm not sure if they are what you are looking for.

Andrew Criddle
Steven Avery
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Re: New Shroud Test Looks Like a Win For Sanity at the Moment

Post by Steven Avery »

semiopen wrote: Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:17 am The blood test history is very interesting. There was a forensic test done by an Italian cop who thought it was type AB which was confirmed by similar tests on the shmata of Oviedo Sudarium_of_Oviedo. ....I'm not sure if McCrone's work is absolutely convincing. ...
Part of the charm of all this is that the science is so obscure.
Presumably the more important "cop" is Professor Marcello Canale of the Institute of Legal Medicine in Genoa, and his 1993 study.

Peter Kirk, and gentlemen in the comments, has a bit about it here:
http://gentlewisdom.org/a-proof-of-the-virgin-birth/

And I would take anything from the McCrone group with a grain of salt.

Steven
Ulan
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Re: New Shroud Test Looks Like a Win For Sanity at the Moment

Post by Ulan »

semiopen wrote: Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:03 am I would bet money that this result is wrong, but the wiki doesn't mention any controversy. McCrone's work, of course, is more highly regarded; if there is no blood it is certainly not type AB, but I've been more interested in how an apparently honest attempt to test the blood type could have yielded a result of AB.
Blood type tests are done via observing agglutination. If you have anything in your sample that causes unspecific agglutination, the blood test would naturally yield the result "AB" (full agglutination). For example, before doctors had become more careful, many babies were falsely identified as having blood type AB from umbilical cord blood, but that just came from some mucopolysaccharides you find abundantly in the cord. Those are everywhere, in all sorts of connecting tissue, saliva, etc. The possibilities for contamination are endless.
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