Was Romans chapter 13, versus 1-7 found in Marcion's copy of Romans

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lsayre
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Was Romans chapter 13, versus 1-7 found in Marcion's copy of Romans

Post by lsayre »

Was Romans chapter 13, verses 1-7 a part of Marcion's version of Romans?
1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Was Romans chapter 13, versus 1-7 found in Marcion's copy of Romans

Post by Ben C. Smith »

lsayre wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:53 pm Was Romans chapter 13, verses 1-7 a part of Marcion's version of Romans?
1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
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It is unattested either way for Marcion's epistle to the Romans.
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lsayre
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Re: Was Romans chapter 13, versus 1-7 found in Marcion's copy of Romans

Post by lsayre »

Thanks Ben!
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DCHindley
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Re: Was Romans chapter 13, versus 1-7 found in Marcion's copy of Romans

Post by DCHindley »

lsayre wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:53 pm Was Romans chapter 13, verses 1-7 a part of Marcion's version of Romans?
1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
ESV
lsayre,

Is there any reason why you ask whether this particular passage was attested in Marcion's version of the epistle to the Romans?

I am aware that Paul's Christology is often seen as a response to emperor worship and their claim to divinity. So it is natural to want to take away from any statement that says "go ahead, do what the authorities say." However, as I have suggested in the past, I think the Christology and the rest of the epistles are completely foreign to each other.

In this POV, "Paul" was a member of a multi-national Judean household (likely Herodian) who was willing to accept gentile slaves and retainers as fellow heirs to the promises God made to Abraham (that his "seed" would inherit a fruitful promised land) simply on the basis of faith that God will follow through. There was a developed theology that even the dead would inherit, through resurrection, when God will establish the fruitful promised land with great fanfare. This theology had no Jesus in it at all, not even a smidgeon.

The Christology woven into these epistles, on the other hand, is an entirely different animal. This is all about Jesus, and nothing else. Jesus is a divine redeemer who effects a symbolic sacrifice. This *could* have developed as a reaction to the demands of the emperors for acknowledgement of their "divinity" among their subjects, but it is just too bizarre to explain by such a simple explanation. Is it *like* a mystery religion in that the rites are private and practicing them bestows immortality, but this is not a simple equation of the Christian mystery with some sort of popular myth about Attis or whoever else, which everyone in antiquity openly knew about. It is more like the Elysian mysteries where there is something, well, mysterious about it. Only the initiated knew about the details, and they feared what would happen to them if they spoke openly about them.

Now that does not explain why the person(s) who added the Christology seemed to not worry about secrecy. However, if seen as a natural progression of redemption theology from its roots in Jewish apocalyptic messianism, through a stage where the gentiles who developed it gradually shed their Jewish associations and adapted the theology to conform more and more to the mysteries they were aware of in Hellenized cultures from which they grew up. Maybe the Judeans were right about the Christians after all. While they have Judaic roots and despite their love for Judean scriptures, they could not adapt to the yoke of Judaism and their worship, and are not faithful to its spirit.

DCH
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MrMacSon
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Re: Was Romans chapter 13, versus 1-7 found in Marcion's copy of Romans

Post by MrMacSon »

DCHindley wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:07 pm
I am aware that Paul's Christology is often seen as a response to emperor worship and their claim to divinity.
.
Pray tell ....

or Is this the 'tell' ? -
DCHindley wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:07 pm
... I think the Christology and the rest of the epistles are completely foreign to each other.

In this POV, "Paul" was a member of a multi-national Judean household (likely Herodian) who was willing to accept gentile slaves and retainers as fellow heirs to the promises God made to Abraham (that his "seed" would inherit a fruitful promised land) simply on the basis of faith that God will follow through. There was a developed theology that even the dead would inherit, through resurrection, when God will establish the fruitful promised land with great fanfare. This theology had no Jesus in it at all, not even a smidgeon.

The Christology woven into these epistles, on the other hand, is an entirely different animal. This is all about Jesus, and nothing else. Jesus is a divine redeemer who effects a symbolic sacrifice. This *could* have developed as a reaction to the demands of the emperors for acknowledgement of their "divinity" among their subjects, but it is just too bizarre to explain by such a simple explanation. Is it *like* a mystery religion in that the rites are private and practicing them bestows immortality, but this is not a simple equation of the Christian mystery with some sort of popular myth about Attis or whoever else, which everyone in antiquity openly knew about. It is more like the Elysian mysteries where there is something, well, mysterious about it. Only the initiated knew about the details, and they feared what would happen to them if they spoke openly about them.

Now that does not explain why the person(s) who added the Christology seemed to not worry about secrecy. However, if seen as a natural progression of redemption theology from its roots in Jewish apocalyptic messianism, through a stage where the gentiles who developed it gradually shed their Jewish associations and adapted the theology to conform more and more to the mysteries they were aware of in Hellenized cultures from which they grew up. Maybe the Judeans were right about the Christians after all. While they have Judaic roots and despite their love for Judean scriptures, they could not adapt to the yoke of Judaism and their worship, and are not faithful to its spirit.
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DCHindley
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Re: Was Romans chapter 13, versus 1-7 found in Marcion's copy of Romans

Post by DCHindley »

MrMacSon wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:46 am
DCHindley wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:07 pm
I am aware that Paul's Christology is often seen as a response to emperor worship and their claim to divinity.
.
Pray tell ....

or Is this the 'tell' ? -

...
Well, what does "this" tell you?

To me the Christology does not appear to be a reaction to emperor worship, but the natural development of the Judean myth of an end-times anointed king to usher in the blessed age, transformed into the story of a divine redeemer. Christology was the byproduct of syncretism, the Judean myth being re-interpreted as time and circumstances goes on due to the influence of mystery religions of the day, which gentiles attached to he Jesus movement may have participated in before their conversions.

DCH
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MrMacSon
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Re: Was Romans chapter 13, versus 1-7 found in Marcion's copy of Romans

Post by MrMacSon »

DCHindley wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:05 am
Well, what does "this" tell you?

To me the Christology does not appear to be a reaction to emperor worship, but the natural development of the Judean myth of an end-times anointed king to usher in the blessed age, transformed into the story of a divine redeemer. Christology was the byproduct of syncretism, the Judean myth being re-interpreted as time and circumstances goes on due to the influence of mystery religions of the day, which gentiles attached to the Jesus movement may have participated in before their conversions.

DCH
Cheers DCH. That strikes a chord with me, for sure :) :cheers:
lsayre
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Re: Was Romans chapter 13, versus 1-7 found in Marcion's copy of Romans

Post by lsayre »

It appears to me that these verses in Romans are likely there because the Roman monarchy wanted them to be there.
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