is Mark a midrash?= the raising of Jairus' girl

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Beverly Devry-Smith
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is Mark a midrash?= the raising of Jairus' girl

Post by Beverly Devry-Smith »

MARK 5:38-41=
He arrived at the house of the synagogue leader, and viewed the tumult, and them that wept and wailed loudly. When he got there, he asked, “Why make ye much ado and weep? The damsel is not dead, but sleeps.” And they laughed at him as (if he were) ridiculous. But after he’d thrown them all out, he took the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entered in where the damsel was lying. [41] And he took the damsel by the hand, saying, “Talitha koumi” (which is, being interpreted (from Aramaic), ‘Little girl, I say to thee, arise’).

=Many details given in this story seem to be a 'midrash' on Genesis 21, the eviction of Hagar=

-Genesis 21:15-16= Ejected (evicted?) by Abraham, a homeless Hagar abandons her thirsty baby Ishmael to die under a bush. He beings to loudly “cry” [εκλαυσεν].
-Gen 21:17-18 = An angel appears and asks: “What [τι] is it, Hagar? Fear not! Rise up [αναστηθι] and take the child [παιδιον] and hold it in your hands [κρατησον τη χειρι σου].”
-Mark 5:39 = Jesus asks: “What [τι] are you crying [κλαιετε] so wildly about? The child [παιδιον] is not dead.” Then in verse 41 he “holds her hand [κρατησας της χειρος]” and speaks Aramaic. In verse 42 the girl “rose up” [ανεστη]. The word ‘koumi’ spoken here is exactly same in Hebrew as what the angel says Genesis 21:18.
-Mark 5:40 has the aside that Jesus entered “into where the place where the child was” [οπου ην το παιδιον]
-Genesis 21:17 twice repeats the angel’s news that God has heard “the voice of your child [του παιδιου] from out of the place where it was [εκ του οπου ου ην].”
-Genesis 21:10 = Just as Sarah “throws out” [εκβαλε] Hagar because she saw young Ishmael “playing with” [παιζοντα] with Isaac in some mocking (incestuous? menacing?) way, so does Jesus at Mark 5:40= he “throws out” [εκβαλων] everybody from Jairus’ house because they “ridiculed him” [κατεγελων] for stating the dead daughter was merely asleep.


Has anyone else observed this odd phenomenon of the evangelists applying many verbs and nouns from an LXX scripture but rewriting the story so as to be almost unrecognizable?
Nathan
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Re: is Mark a midrash?= the raising of Jairus' girl

Post by Nathan »

Beverly Devry-Smith wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:21 am MARK 5:38-41=
He arrived at the house of the synagogue leader, and viewed the tumult, and them that wept and wailed loudly. When he got there, he asked, “Why make ye much ado and weep? The damsel is not dead, but sleeps.” And they laughed at him as (if he were) ridiculous. But after he’d thrown them all out, he took the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entered in where the damsel was lying. [41] And he took the damsel by the hand, saying, “Talitha koumi” (which is, being interpreted (from Aramaic), ‘Little girl, I say to thee, arise’).

=Many details given in this story seem to be a 'midrash' on Genesis 21, the eviction of Hagar=

-Genesis 21:15-16= Ejected (evicted?) by Abraham, a homeless Hagar abandons her thirsty baby Ishmael to die under a bush. He beings to loudly “cry” [εκλαυσεν].
-Gen 21:17-18 = An angel appears and asks: “What [τι] is it, Hagar? Fear not! Rise up [αναστηθι] and take the child [παιδιον] and hold it in your hands [κρατησον τη χειρι σου].”
-Mark 5:39 = Jesus asks: “What [τι] are you crying [κλαιετε] so wildly about? The child [παιδιον] is not dead.” Then in verse 41 he “holds her hand [κρατησας της χειρος]” and speaks Aramaic. In verse 42 the girl “rose up” [ανεστη]. The word ‘koumi’ spoken here is exactly same in Hebrew as what the angel says Genesis 21:18.
-Mark 5:40 has the aside that Jesus entered “into where the place where the child was” [οπου ην το παιδιον]
-Genesis 21:17 twice repeats the angel’s news that God has heard “the voice of your child [του παιδιου] from out of the place where it was [εκ του οπου ου ην].”
-Genesis 21:10 = Just as Sarah “throws out” [εκβαλε] Hagar because she saw young Ishmael “playing with” [παιζοντα] with Isaac in some mocking (incestuous? menacing?) way, so does Jesus at Mark 5:40= he “throws out” [εκβαλων] everybody from Jairus’ house because they “ridiculed him” [κατεγελων] for stating the dead daughter was merely asleep.


Has anyone else observed this odd phenomenon of the evangelists applying many verbs and nouns from an LXX scripture but rewriting the story so as to be almost unrecognizable?
A nitpick: midrash is explicit biblical exegesis. Mark on the other hand is generally narrative, of course, which means Mark is not midrash.

An example of midrash (Sifre Deuteronomy §33):

"And these words which I commanded you this day shall be upon your heart" (Deut. 6:6). Rabbi [Judah the Prince] says, "Why did Moses say this? Because Scripture says, 'And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart'. I do not know just how one is to love God. Hence Scripture goes on to say, 'And these words which I commanded you this day shall be upon your heart,' meaning, take these words to heart, for thus you will recognize Him who spoke and the world came into being, and you will cling to His ways."

(=explicit exegesis: a verse is cited and commented on.)
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: is Mark a midrash?= the raising of Jairus' girl

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Nathan wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:58 am
Beverly Devry-Smith wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:21 am MARK 5:38-41=
He arrived at the house of the synagogue leader, and viewed the tumult, and them that wept and wailed loudly. When he got there, he asked, “Why make ye much ado and weep? The damsel is not dead, but sleeps.” And they laughed at him as (if he were) ridiculous. But after he’d thrown them all out, he took the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entered in where the damsel was lying. [41] And he took the damsel by the hand, saying, “Talitha koumi” (which is, being interpreted (from Aramaic), ‘Little girl, I say to thee, arise’).

=Many details given in this story seem to be a 'midrash' on Genesis 21, the eviction of Hagar=

-Genesis 21:15-16= Ejected (evicted?) by Abraham, a homeless Hagar abandons her thirsty baby Ishmael to die under a bush. He beings to loudly “cry” [εκλαυσεν].
-Gen 21:17-18 = An angel appears and asks: “What [τι] is it, Hagar? Fear not! Rise up [αναστηθι] and take the child [παιδιον] and hold it in your hands [κρατησον τη χειρι σου].”
-Mark 5:39 = Jesus asks: “What [τι] are you crying [κλαιετε] so wildly about? The child [παιδιον] is not dead.” Then in verse 41 he “holds her hand [κρατησας της χειρος]” and speaks Aramaic. In verse 42 the girl “rose up” [ανεστη]. The word ‘koumi’ spoken here is exactly same in Hebrew as what the angel says Genesis 21:18.
-Mark 5:40 has the aside that Jesus entered “into where the place where the child was” [οπου ην το παιδιον]
-Genesis 21:17 twice repeats the angel’s news that God has heard “the voice of your child [του παιδιου] from out of the place where it was [εκ του οπου ου ην].”
-Genesis 21:10 = Just as Sarah “throws out” [εκβαλε] Hagar because she saw young Ishmael “playing with” [παιζοντα] with Isaac in some mocking (incestuous? menacing?) way, so does Jesus at Mark 5:40= he “throws out” [εκβαλων] everybody from Jairus’ house because they “ridiculed him” [κατεγελων] for stating the dead daughter was merely asleep.


Has anyone else observed this odd phenomenon of the evangelists applying many verbs and nouns from an LXX scripture but rewriting the story so as to be almost unrecognizable?
A nitpick: midrash is explicit biblical exegesis. Mark on the other hand is generally narrative, of course, which means Mark is not midrash.

An example of midrash (Sifre Deuteronomy §33):

"And these words which I commanded you this day shall be upon your heart" (Deut. 6:6). Rabbi [Judah the Prince] says, "Why did Moses say this? Because Scripture says, 'And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart'. I do not know just how one is to love God. Hence Scripture goes on to say, 'And these words which I commanded you this day shall be upon your heart,' meaning, take these words to heart, for thus you will recognize Him who spoke and the world came into being, and you will cling to His ways."

(=explicit exegesis: a verse is cited and commented on.)
How many people even use that word correctly anymore?
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Nathan
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Re: is Mark a midrash?= the raising of Jairus' girl

Post by Nathan »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:05 pm
Nathan wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:58 am
Beverly Devry-Smith wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:21 am MARK 5:38-41=
He arrived at the house of the synagogue leader, and viewed the tumult, and them that wept and wailed loudly. When he got there, he asked, “Why make ye much ado and weep? The damsel is not dead, but sleeps.” And they laughed at him as (if he were) ridiculous. But after he’d thrown them all out, he took the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entered in where the damsel was lying. [41] And he took the damsel by the hand, saying, “Talitha koumi” (which is, being interpreted (from Aramaic), ‘Little girl, I say to thee, arise’).

=Many details given in this story seem to be a 'midrash' on Genesis 21, the eviction of Hagar=

-Genesis 21:15-16= Ejected (evicted?) by Abraham, a homeless Hagar abandons her thirsty baby Ishmael to die under a bush. He beings to loudly “cry” [εκλαυσεν].
-Gen 21:17-18 = An angel appears and asks: “What [τι] is it, Hagar? Fear not! Rise up [αναστηθι] and take the child [παιδιον] and hold it in your hands [κρατησον τη χειρι σου].”
-Mark 5:39 = Jesus asks: “What [τι] are you crying [κλαιετε] so wildly about? The child [παιδιον] is not dead.” Then in verse 41 he “holds her hand [κρατησας της χειρος]” and speaks Aramaic. In verse 42 the girl “rose up” [ανεστη]. The word ‘koumi’ spoken here is exactly same in Hebrew as what the angel says Genesis 21:18.
-Mark 5:40 has the aside that Jesus entered “into where the place where the child was” [οπου ην το παιδιον]
-Genesis 21:17 twice repeats the angel’s news that God has heard “the voice of your child [του παιδιου] from out of the place where it was [εκ του οπου ου ην].”
-Genesis 21:10 = Just as Sarah “throws out” [εκβαλε] Hagar because she saw young Ishmael “playing with” [παιζοντα] with Isaac in some mocking (incestuous? menacing?) way, so does Jesus at Mark 5:40= he “throws out” [εκβαλων] everybody from Jairus’ house because they “ridiculed him” [κατεγελων] for stating the dead daughter was merely asleep.


Has anyone else observed this odd phenomenon of the evangelists applying many verbs and nouns from an LXX scripture but rewriting the story so as to be almost unrecognizable?
A nitpick: midrash is explicit biblical exegesis. Mark on the other hand is generally narrative, of course, which means Mark is not midrash.

An example of midrash (Sifre Deuteronomy §33):

"And these words which I commanded you this day shall be upon your heart" (Deut. 6:6). Rabbi [Judah the Prince] says, "Why did Moses say this? Because Scripture says, 'And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart'. I do not know just how one is to love God. Hence Scripture goes on to say, 'And these words which I commanded you this day shall be upon your heart,' meaning, take these words to heart, for thus you will recognize Him who spoke and the world came into being, and you will cling to His ways."

(=explicit exegesis: a verse is cited and commented on.)
How many people even use that word correctly anymore?
Certainly scholars of rabbinic Judaism do, and not a few who specialize in early Christianity as well (Richard Bauckham comes to mind).

Unfortunately it continues to be misused by those of a more skeptical bent, mythicists most especially (if only because some of their luminaries tend to misuse it, such as Robert Price).
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Re: is Mark a midrash?= the raising of Jairus' girl

Post by MrMacSon »

Nathan wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:58 am
A nitpick: midrash is explicit biblical exegesis. Mark on the other hand is generally narrative, of course, which means Mark is not midrash.

An example of midrash (Sifre Deuteronomy §33) ... (=explicit exegesis: a verse is cited and commented on.)
.
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:05 pm How many people even use that word correctly anymore?
Nathan wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:22 pm
Certainly scholars of rabbinic Judaism do, and not a few who specialize in early Christianity as well (Richard Bauckham comes to mind).

Unfortunately it continues to be misused by those of a more skeptical bent, mythicists most especially (if only because some of their luminaries tend to misuse it, such as Robert Price).
.
Midrash is (or was) essentially explicit exegesis of the Hebrew Bible (and, signficantly, as a first century scholarship and perhaps just post 70 AD/CE) (I'm not sure in what context Bauckham uses the word midrash ie. explicit Hebrew Bible exegesis or NT exegesis or both). But could it be appropriate to say scenarios such as Beverly has laid out above - rewriting a Hebrew story in a Christian (or other) context - is likely to have arisen or come out of some form of midrash? Whether it may have been via formal, early-Rabbinic midrash or outside Rabbinic deliberations, and the fact it does not include 'a verse cited and [commentary on it]' may not be important. Is there another term that may apply? 'Appropriation'?

To go further, it would seem much of the NT is such appropriation and rewriting.
Beverly Devry-Smith
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Re: is Mark a midrash?= the raising of Jairus' girl

Post by Beverly Devry-Smith »

perhaps midrash is the wrong word choice, but I think, long before Kaballah supposedly came into being as such, Mark IS reinterpreting scripture without bothering to tell us—he doesn't feel the need to quote specifically and point it out like the later Rabbis. He is operating on some new and unparalleled framework that only the other synoptic authors successfully tried to copy. See for instance the use of Ruth in Mark 6=

-Ruth 2:7 = she “didn’t rest even a little”
-Mark 6:31 = Jesus commands: “Rest a little!”
-Ruth 2:11= Boaz says: “It was reported to me all as much as you’ve done” [απηγγελη μοι παντα οσα πεποιηκας] = Ruth 3:16 repeats this about Naomi: απηγγειλαν αυτη παντα και οσα εποιησαν (and Mark 6:30 repeats the phraseology exactly!).
-Mark 6:30= “They reported to him all, even as much as they did.” [απηγγειλαν αυτω παντα και οσα εποιησαν]
-Ruth 2:14= “Already it’s the hour [ηδη ωρα] to eat, draw near [προσελθε] here to consume my bread-loaves.”
-Mark 6:35 = “Already the hour [ηδη ωρας] had become great/late, and the disciples, having drawn near [προσελθοντες]…”
-Ruth 2:10 = she asks Boaz: “How is it you’ve recognized [επιγνωναι] me?”
-Mark 6:33 = “Many recognized [επεγνωσαν] him”
-Ruth 2:19-20= mentioned blessing twice, Mark 6:41 Jesus takes bread to “bless it”

Is this a "florilegium" like those from Qumran? There doesn't seem to be an accurate term for what this author is doing with these phrases he has culled from earlier novels.
robert j
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Re: is Mark a midrash?= the raising of Jairus' girl

Post by robert j »

Beverly Devry-Smith wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:21 am
Has anyone else observed this odd phenomenon of the evangelists applying many verbs and nouns from an LXX scripture but rewriting the story so as to be almost unrecognizable?
Here are some examples, mostly from Mark, that I have posted on this forum previously ---

The announcement of good news kata Isaiah in Mark's opening line, including an argument for "as it is written in Isaiah the prophet", rather than the variant "as it is written in the prophets" that you have suggested ----

Mark and Isaiah ---
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=673


Mark's use of Isaiah again, this time with the concept of Jesus as the tekton of Isaiah ----

Mark 6:3 --- This is Not the Carpenter ---
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2404


Mark's use of both Paul and Numbers 12 to construct his tale of the healing of the leper in chapter 1. Again, a different opinion on a textual variant --- I have anger, not compassion --- based on Numbers 12:9-10 as Mark's source ---

Mark’s ménage a trois with Miriam and Paul ---
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1451


And here's just Paul's use of Numbers 12, with a bit of Jeremiah, to construct his own back-story ---

Visions, Lepers, and Numbers 12 ---
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2396

Beverly Devry-Smith wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:36 am Mark IS reinterpreting scripture without bothering to tell us—he doesn't feel the need to quote specifically and point it out like the later Rabbis. He is operating on some new and unparalleled framework that only the other synoptic authors successfully tried to copy.
I think Paul employed this methodology before Mark (and before the other synoptic authors).

What is your opinion on the use of Paul, or dependence on Paul, for the author of GMark?
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