Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

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Giuseppe
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Re: Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

Post by Giuseppe »

John2 wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:03 pm I think James boasting of his relationship to Jesus would go against what he says in 4:10: "Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up," all the more so when you factor in (as I do) that Jesus was considered to be God (or "the Lord") from the get go, like in Revelation or Php. 2:6-11.
very unexpected this being humble by James, since he was boasting himself in the act itself of proclaiming himself "Pillar". So this evidence goes against directly your portrait of James based on 4:10.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

Post by Giuseppe »

John2 wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:15 pm Giuseppe wrote:
... something had changed in the concept of Jesus from the time of 1 Peter, James, Revelation to the time of Hegesippus.
But what about Mark? In my view Mark was written by a follower of Peter (like Papias says) c. 70 CE, and while that isn't quite in the time of Peter and James, it is pretty close. And Mark says that Jesus had a brother named James in 6:3:
but in Mark the James Pillar of Paul is more probably the James son of Zebedee, not the James brother of Jesus. Hence, even conceding a GMark written by a follower of Peter (!), you can't infer your wrong conclusion:
So nothing appears to have changed at least from c. 70 CE to Hegesippus. Jesus was known to have had a brother named James at least since c. 70 CE.
because you are ignoring the fact that James son of Zebedee is not James "brother of Jesus".
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
John2
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Re: Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

Post by John2 »

very unexpected this being humble by James, since he was boasting himself in the act itself of proclaiming himself "Pillar". So this evidence goes against directly your portrait of James based on 4:10.
James does not ever call himself a pillar, as far as I am aware. Paul says that he was esteemed as a pillar in Gal. 2:9:
James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars ...


I'm likewise unaware of James ever calling himself "the Just" either. As Hegesippus puts it in EH 2.23.4 and 7:
He has been called the Just by all from the time of our Saviour to the present day.
Because of his exceeding great justice he was called the Just ...
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Giuseppe
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Re: Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

Post by Giuseppe »

John2 wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:08 pm James does not ever call himself a pillar, as far as I am aware. Paul says that he was esteemed as a pillar in Gal. 2:9:
surely Paul is meaning that James would like be called Pillar also by Paul himself, as pure act of submission. To think otherwise would be equivalent to consider James a kind of Catholic saint.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
John2
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Re: Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

Post by John2 »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:06 pm
John2 wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:15 pm Giuseppe wrote:
... something had changed in the concept of Jesus from the time of 1 Peter, James, Revelation to the time of Hegesippus.
But what about Mark? In my view Mark was written by a follower of Peter (like Papias says) c. 70 CE, and while that isn't quite in the time of Peter and James, it is pretty close. And Mark says that Jesus had a brother named James in 6:3:
but in Mark the James Pillar of Paul is more probably the James son of Zebedee, not the James brother of Jesus. Hence, even conceding a GMark written by a follower of Peter (!), you can't infer your wrong conclusion:
So nothing appears to have changed at least from c. 70 CE to Hegesippus. Jesus was known to have had a brother named James at least since c. 70 CE.
because you are ignoring the fact that James son of Zebedee is not James "brother of Jesus".
Well, if we go by Acts (which is all we have), James the son of Zebedee died in 44 CE, before Galatians is thought to have been written.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James,_son_of_Zebedee
Some scholars date the original composition to c. 50–60 AD. Other scholars agree that Galatians was written between the late 40s and early 50s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_the_Galatians
I'm not sure when he met the pillar James though.
Last edited by John2 on Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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John2
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Re: Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

Post by John2 »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:14 pm
John2 wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:08 pm James does not ever call himself a pillar, as far as I am aware. Paul says that he was esteemed as a pillar in Gal. 2:9:
surely Paul is meaning that James would like be called Pillar also by Paul himself, as pure act of submission. To think otherwise would be equivalent to consider James a kind of Catholic saint.
I do not get that impression. And Paul does not ever submit to James (in his letters), as far as I am aware. As he says in Gal. 2:6:
As for those who were held in high esteem—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism—they added nothing to my message.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Giuseppe
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Re: Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

Post by Giuseppe »

John2 wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:14 pm Well, if we go by Acts (which is all we have), James the son of Zebedee died in 44 CE, before Galatians is thought to have been written.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James,_son_of_Zebedee
Some scholars date the original composition to c. 50–60 AD.[5] Other scholars agree that Galatians was written between the late 40s and early 50s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_the_Galatians
I accept the fact that Galatians was the last epistle written by Paul as well as the fact that the events descrived in Gal 1-2 are the more old events of which we have evidence about the Christian cult. So James the Pillar could well be dead (or not) when Paul wrote Galatians. At any rate what Mark says about a distinction between a carnal brother and a Pillar son of Zebedee goes against Acts.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

Post by Giuseppe »

John2 wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:20 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:14 pm
John2 wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:08 pm James does not ever call himself a pillar, as far as I am aware. Paul says that he was esteemed as a pillar in Gal. 2:9:
surely Paul is meaning that James would like be called Pillar also by Paul himself, as pure act of submission. To think otherwise would be equivalent to consider James a kind of Catholic saint.
I do not get that impression.
And Paul does not ever submit to James (in his letters), as far as I am aware. As he says in Gal. 2:6:
this is not a confutation of my argument (=that Paul alludes to the James's status of "Pillar" in the eyes of the his followers to remark his own independence from James and the followers of James).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Blood
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Re: Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

Post by Blood »

Ethan wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:50 am Then maybe Josephine Quinn shouldn't write a book in a Phoenician derived alphabet.

The Old Testament is PHOENICIAN Literature.
The author isn't denying that people called themselves Phoenicians, or that there was a Phoenician alphabet.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp
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Re: Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

Post by Ethan »

Blood wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:27 am
Ethan wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:50 am Then maybe Josephine Quinn shouldn't write a book in a Phoenician derived alphabet.

The Old Testament is PHOENICIAN Literature.
The author isn't denying that people called themselves Phoenicians, or that there was a Phoenician alphabet.
The word "Phoenician" is a Greek word and thus not a self-identifier and Josephus Quinn , a Christian who raised reading the King James
and because she can't find the word Phoenician in her favorite book, thus they don't exist, that is her logic.

Herodotus 2.106 - Palestine district of Syria
Herodotus 1.105 - Syria called Palestine
Herodotus 3.91 - Phoenicia, and the part of Syria called Palestine

Herodotus 4.39
Now from the Persian country to Phoenicia there is a wide and vast tract of land; and from Phoenicia this peninsula runs beside our sea by way of the Syrian Palestine and Egypt, which is at the end of it; in this peninsula there are just three nations

Herodotus. 7.89
These Phoenicians formerly dwelt, as they themselves say, by the Red Sea; they crossed from there and now inhabit the seacoast of Syria. This part of Syria as far as Egypt is all called Palestine.


Nimrud Slab (811 to 783 BCE)
from the bank of the Euphrates, the land of Hatti, the land of Amurru in its entirety, the land of Tyre, the land of Sidon, the land of Humri, the land of Edom, the land of Palastu, as far as the great sea of the setting sun. I imposed tax and tribute on them

This Ancient slab dating 800 BCE lists SEVEN Lands in the Levant from NORTH to SOUTH
and what is missing?

Hatti
Amurra
Tyre
Sidon
Humri
Edom
Palastu
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
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