New Mythicist Evidence: Gospel of Philip 9

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Giuseppe
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New Mythicist Evidence: Gospel of Philip 9

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Christ came to ransom some, to save others, to redeem others. He ransomed those who were strangers and made them his own. And he set his own apart, those whom he gave as a pledge according to his plan. It was not only when he appeared that he voluntarily laid down his life, but he voluntarily laid down his life from the very day the world came into being. Then he came first in order to take it, since it had been given as a pledge. It fell into the hands of robbers and was taken captive, but he saved it. He redeemed the good people in the world as well as the evil.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... hilip.html

This confirms precisely what already Revelation 13:8 says : Jesus was crucified before the creation of the world!

And so it is explained the real allegorical meaning of Golgotha:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4309#p88855
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: New Mythicist Evidence: Gospel of Philip 9

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Sigh. Is this really EVIDENCE of anything? Do you ever stop and think what you are suggesting? 'Evidence' allegedly exists for Jesus's non-existence. Think about that for a moment. Please.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: New Mythicist Evidence: Gospel of Philip 9

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:32 am Sigh. Is this really EVIDENCE of anything? Do you ever stop and think what you are suggesting? 'Evidence' allegedly exists for Jesus's non-existence. Think about that for a moment. Please.
I think, for once, that you are shortchanging Giuseppe here. He is arguing that Philip 8 is evidence for a particular reading of Revelation 13.8. There is nothing wrong a priori with mounting such an argument.
Giuseppe wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:18 am
Christ came to ransom some, to save others, to redeem others. He ransomed those who were strangers and made them his own. And he set his own apart, those whom he gave as a pledge according to his plan. It was not only when he appeared that he voluntarily laid down his life, but he voluntarily laid down his life from the very day the world came into being. Then he came first in order to take it, since it had been given as a pledge. It fell into the hands of robbers and was taken captive, but he saved it. He redeemed the good people in the world as well as the evil.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... hilip.html

This confirms precisely what already Revelation 13:8 says : Jesus was crucified before the creation of the world!
First of all, good catch. Second, however, the gospel of Philip is extant in Coptic, and I am no Coptic scholar. The original might not sound quite like this translation does. For example, here is another translation:

Philip 8: The Christ came! Some indeed he ransoms, yet others he saves, yet for others he atones. Those who were alienated he ransomed, he brought them to himself. And he saved those who came to him — these he set as pledges in his desire. Not only when he was revealed did he appoint the soul as he desired, but since the day of the world's origin he appointed the soul. At the time he desires he came first to fetch it, since it was placed among the pledges. It came to be under the bandits and they took it captive. Yet he saved it, and he atoned for both the good and the evil in the world.

Philip 8a.png
Philip 8a.png (38.76 KiB) Viewed 10784 times

Appointing/placing the soul (or his life) may be different than laying it down. (Also, if appointing the soul does literally indicate the moment of his dying, then he died twice in this passage, once at the beginning and then again when he was revealed. Does that work for you?)

I have argued for the "controversial" understanding of Revelation 13.8 myself, so I am by no means opposed to finding support for it. This is a good catch, but I need more.
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Secret Alias
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Re: New Mythicist Evidence: Gospel of Philip 9

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Appreciate the joy of finding something that helps an interpretation along. But to remind you how this discovery was contextualized:
New Mythicist Evidence: Gospel of Philip 9

his confirms precisely what already Revelation 13:8 says : Jesus was crucified before the creation of the world!

And so it is explained the real allegorical meaning of Golgotha:
Great that you've found something related to the Book of Revelations. But that's not what Giuseppe is claiming and not what he's exploiting here.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Re: New Mythicist Evidence: Gospel of Philip 9

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The quoted passage is surely evidence that there were two crucifixions in the view of "Philip": the first crucifixion happened "the very day the world came into being" and the second crucifixion happened "when he appeared", viz. under Pilate.

At this point it becomes too much easy to think which crucifixion was held by the early Christians, given also the allegorical meaning of Golgotha:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4309#p88855
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: New Mythicist Evidence: Gospel of Philip 9

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:40 am Appreciate the joy of finding something that helps an interpretation along. But to remind you how this discovery was contextualized:
New Mythicist Evidence: Gospel of Philip 9

his confirms precisely what already Revelation 13:8 says : Jesus was crucified before the creation of the world!

And so it is explained the real allegorical meaning of Golgotha:
Great that you've found something related to the Book of Revelations. But that's not what Giuseppe is claiming and not what he's exploiting here.
I deliberately ignored the bit about Golgotha, which I find to be bizarre. But Giuseppe is going for Revelation 13.8. It is right there.
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Giuseppe
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Re: New Mythicist Evidence: Gospel of Philip 9

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About the Golgotha bit: a modern scholar, Andreas Bedenbender, has recognized that there are midrashic allusions to the first days of creation in the Mark's account of the crucifixion of Jesus (for example, the eclipse of sun). And note the presence of the root of Golgotha (ROSH) in the first word of the entire Bible.

About Gospel of Philip 9:
Note that this opens an entire universe in the interpretation of the Gospel of Mark:

It fell into the hands of robbers and was taken captive, but he saved it.

here the archontes (the killers of Jesus in the his crucifixion before the creation of the world) are called "robbers" but not coincidentially they are the same "robbers" in the middle of which the Son had to take again his "life". So while the human Jesus dies, the Spirit who abandons him is really saved by the his true owner (who "laid down" it the first time, before the creation of the world).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: New Mythicist Evidence: Gospel of Philip 9

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Giuseppe wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:04 pm About the Golgotha bit: a modern scholar, Andreas Bedenbender, has recognized that there are midrashic allusions to the first days of creation in the Mark's account of the crucifixion of Jesus (for example, the eclipse of sun). And note the presence of the root of Golgotha (ROSH) in the first word of the entire Bible.
Rosh is not the root of Golgotha.
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Giuseppe
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Re: New Mythicist Evidence: Gospel of Philip 9

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:13 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:04 pm About the Golgotha bit: a modern scholar, Andreas Bedenbender, has recognized that there are midrashic allusions to the first days of creation in the Mark's account of the crucifixion of Jesus (for example, the eclipse of sun). And note the presence of the root of Golgotha (ROSH) in the first word of the entire Bible.
Rosh is not the root of Golgotha.
Then why there is the mention of Golgotha in the following list of the possible meanings of rosh?
HEAD

hed (ro'-sh, Aramaic re'sh, and in special sense gulgoleth, literally, "skull," "cut-off head" (1 Chronicles 10:10), whence Golgotha (Matthew 27:33; Mark 15:22; John 19:17);
....
4. Beginning, Source, Origin:

As a fourth meaning the word occurs (Proverbs 8:23; Ecclesiastes 3:11; Isaiah 41:4) in the sense of beginning of months (Exodus 12:2), of rivers (Genesis 2:10), of streets or roads (Isaiah 51:20; Ezekiel 16:25; 21:21).

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/head/
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: New Mythicist Evidence: Gospel of Philip 9

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:33 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:13 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:04 pm About the Golgotha bit: a modern scholar, Andreas Bedenbender, has recognized that there are midrashic allusions to the first days of creation in the Mark's account of the crucifixion of Jesus (for example, the eclipse of sun). And note the presence of the root of Golgotha (ROSH) in the first word of the entire Bible.
Rosh is not the root of Golgotha.
Then why there is the mention of Golgotha in the following list of the possible meanings of rosh?
HEAD

hed (ro'-sh, Aramaic re'sh, and in special sense gulgoleth, literally, "skull," "cut-off head" (1 Chronicles 10:10), whence Golgotha (Matthew 27:33; Mark 15:22; John 19:17);
....
4. Beginning, Source, Origin:

As a fourth meaning the word occurs (Proverbs 8:23; Ecclesiastes 3:11; Isaiah 41:4) in the sense of beginning of months (Exodus 12:2), of rivers (Genesis 2:10), of streets or roads (Isaiah 51:20; Ezekiel 16:25; 21:21).

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/head/
Because that is a page analyzing the English word "head," not the Hebrew word rosh. Looks like every Hebrew word translated as "head" in the Hebrew scriptures is listed, including one word for the head of an ax and another for the head of a spear.

Golgotha properly means "skull," which in some cases can be synonymous with "head."

But come. Does rosh even look like the root of Golgotha to you? It shares exactly one vowel and zero consonants.

The two words are not etymologically related, at least not in any direct sense. Their meanings sometimes overlap.

ETA: Thus the dots you are trying to connect are a bit remote:
  1. You have to assume that "skull" is being used as a partially synonymous cipher for "head."
  2. You have to assume that "head" is being used, not literally, but rather to mean the beginning of something (as opposed to its many other figurative meanings).
  3. You have to assume that the beginning in question is the beginning of the world, thus relating to Revelation 13.8.
You cannot blame a rational person for not wanting to share all of those assumptions with you.
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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