Mark 1:7

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moses
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Mark 1:7

Post by moses »

Mark 1:7

"Καὶ ἐκήρυσσεν λέγων· ἔρχεται ὁ ἰσχυρότερός μου ὀπίσω μου, οὗ οὐκ εἰμὶ ἱκανὸς κύψας λῦσαι τὸν ἱμάντα τῶν ὑποδημάτων αὐτοῦ"

"And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful (ἰσχυρότερός) than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie."


what does "powerful" mean? is john envisioning some military leader who is going to come very soon?
Charles Wilson
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Re: Mark 1:7

Post by Charles Wilson »

moses --

Please remember, moses, that this is a Minority Report (of one).

This is both Historical Note and Joke. The "Author" of the quote is from the Mishmarot Priesthood. He is from the Service Group "Bilgah".
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3298-bilgah

Bilgah has committed an Offense against the Priesthood and is deprecated in the sight of other Priestly Groups. "Immer" is the Group that follows Bilgah and the Priests of Immer are in charge of a Coup attempt on Herod in 4 BCE. Bilgah and Immer are on Duty for the Passover and Feast of 4 BCE.

Thus, the Joke: After me (Bilgah), comes one (Immer) who is before me (Since Bilgah is not worthy). The Priestly Sacrifices ("Moooo!") form the basis of understanding the straps Joke.

"All together now...":

This points to a Story that was dismembered, rewritten and Transvalued for the New Religion.

Thank you, moses.

CW
jude77
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Re: Mark 1:7

Post by jude77 »

Hello Moses!
I would offer this: What John is understanding as "power" in this verse isn't power in the "worldly" sense of being able to impose your will on another, but as the power that comes from being more directly connected to God. So for John, the one who is more powerful is more "God-focused". There really isn't any evidence that John was expecting a military leader to appear given the fact that John completely repudiated Jewish culture and political expectations (for instance rather than living in a city he lived in the desert, possibly with the Essenes).

I hope this helps.
Michael BG
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Re: Mark 1:7

Post by Michael BG »

Moses

I think it would be helpful to put this line into its context

Mk 1:7-8
[7] And he proclaimed, saying, "After me comes he who is mightier than I, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie.
[8] I have baptized you with water; but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
I think it is likely that the Q version is the older version with its “and fire” at the end followed by:
οὗ τὸ πτύον ἐν τῇ χειρὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ διακαθαριεῖ τὴν ἅλωνα αὐτοῦ, καὶ συνάξει τὸν σῖτον αὐτοῦ εἰς τὴν ἀποθήκην, τὸ δὲ ἄχυρον κατακαύσει πυρὶἀσβέστῳ

His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into his granary, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.
It is therefore possible, that before this saying was taken over by Christians, John was referring to God and it is God who will gather his wheat and burn the chaff.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Mark 1:7

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Mark 1:7 is related to the idea of the Paraclete. But having John the Baptist utter this proclamation reveals that, originally, it was not directed at Jesus, but said by him (as per The Gospel of John). John the Baptist is completely anachronistic--I would venture to say non historical--to the original Good News, wherein it was Jesus who commissioned a new baptism through his death, and the one to come after him would baptize. (Paul).
Martin Klatt

Re: Mark 1:7

Post by Martin Klatt »

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jude77
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Re: Mark 1:7

Post by jude77 »

Michael BG wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 3:07 pm Moses

I think it would be helpful to put this line into its context

Mk 1:7-8
[7] And he proclaimed, saying, "After me comes he who is mightier than I, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie.
[8] I have baptized you with water; but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
I think it is likely that the Q version is the older version with its “and fire” at the end followed by:
οὗ τὸ πτύον ἐν τῇ χειρὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ διακαθαριεῖ τὴν ἅλωνα αὐτοῦ, καὶ συνάξει τὸν σῖτον αὐτοῦ εἰς τὴν ἀποθήκην, τὸ δὲ ἄχυρον κατακαύσει πυρὶἀσβέστῳ

His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into his granary, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.
It is therefore possible, that before this saying was taken over by Christians, John was referring to God and it is God who will gather his wheat and burn the chaff.
Michael BG makes an excellent point here of contextualizing the passage. As you read the Gospels (if not, in fact, any book) you will see that context will define the content of a passage.
Stefan Kristensen
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Re: Mark 1:7

Post by Stefan Kristensen »

It's a good question, moses. I think it's all theological storytelling by Mark, and my guess goes something like this. First, John is saying that he himself is also powerful, but Jesus is more powerful (much more!) And I think it has to do with the ability to wield God's 'force' or 'power'. They are both prophets, and prophets could reasonably be said to be "powerful" (or "strong") in this way, in that they can wield God's power to some extent.

God's power in this case is the life-force of blessing, that in many ways defines God. This is the concrete force, or power, God uses to make things grow and to create life. (It can also work negatively, the force of curse to create drought, disease, plagues and death, etc.) So this is the force Jesus uses to heal people. But just as God's force is also at work everytime someone converts and becomes a new creation, as we can see from other NT writings, especially Paul, so is healing a parabolic image of conversion within the gospel narratives.

This means that every healing corresponds to an exorcism and to the forgiving of sins. All in all, the defeat of Satan. The evil spirits try to destroy life, but Jesus has the spirit of God in some special manner, so he can defeat Satan's minions as easy as nothing. By his authority from God Jesus simply commands over them.

God's life-force, or 'blessing' force, is connected to the idea of his spirit. Especially in NT theology, but also relatively often in the OT. Prophets has the spirit come over them, and most notably the prophets Elijah and Elisha are able to wield God's life force with their miracles and healings.

John is a prophet (in fact Elijah) so he also has the spirit to some extent, and that gives him the ability to use God's life-force, which is what makes him powerful/strong (ισχυρος). But the reason that Jesus is even more powerful (or strong) is that he is able to wield God's life-force of blessing to an even greater degree. A mere touching of Jesus' garment is enough life-force to heal you!

You ask if John is expecting a military leader, and this is also what he gets. The more able you are to use God's life-force, the more "powerful" you are. And the more you can defeat Satan and his army, with their forces of death and sin. Mark uses the term "powerful" (ισχυρος) for Satan in the parable in Mark 3:27, with the image of Jesus coming into Satan's kingdom (the earthly realm) and binding him, so that Jesus has be more powerful than Satan.

We must be very, very careful to distinguish between "authority" (εξουσια) and "power" (δυναμις) in the gospel narratives, even though many translations mess this up. The authority is Jesus' authority, given by God through the spirit at the baptism, but the "power/force" of his miraculous deeds is not Jesus' power but God's power. So Jesus has the complete authority to use God's power, as the son of a king who receives the whole authority of his fathers kingship.

That's what makes Jesus so much more powerful than John, I'd say: John is just a prophet channeling God's power like any prophet, but Jesus is furthermore God's royal son, having been given the whole, complete authority by God. As far as God is defined by his all powerful life-force, Jesus is effectively God in this narrative. That's pretty powerful.
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