Springtime for Tiberius

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Secret Alias
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Springtime for Tiberius

Post by Secret Alias »

Just wondering if anyone can find the original for this particular passage in the Clementine Homilies because I wonder whether it provides a timetable for (a) the ministry of Jesus and (b) the ministry of Peter in Rome relative to the entire reign of Tiberius:
[Chapter VI] And, not to discuss such matters to you in a long speech, while I was occupied with such reasonings and doings, a certain report, taking its rise in the spring-time, in the reign of Tiberius Cæsar, gradually grew everywhere, and ran through the world as truly the good tidings of God, being unable to stifle the counsel of God in silence. Therefore it everywhere became greater and louder, saying that a certain One in Judæa, beginning in the spring season, was preaching to the Jews the kingdom of the invisible God, and saying that whoever of them would reform his manner of living should enjoy it. And in order that He might be believed that He uttered these things full of the Godhead, He wrought many wonderful miracles and signs by His mere command, as having received power from God. For He made the deaf to hear, the blind to see, the lame to walk, raised up the bowed down, drove away every disease, put to flight every demon; and even scabbed lepers, by only looking on Him from a distance, were sent away cured by Him; and the dead being brought to Him, were raised; and there was nothing which He could not do. And as time advanced, so much the greater, through the arrival of more persons, and the stronger grew—I say not now the report, but—the truth of the thing; for now at length there were meetings in various places for consultation and inquiry as to who He might be that had appeared, and what was His purpose.

[Chapter VII] And then in the same year, in the autumn season, a certain one, standing in a public place, cried and said, Men of Rome, hearken. The Son of God has come in Judæa, proclaiming eternal life to all who will, if they shall live according to the counsel of the Father, who has sent Him. Wherefore change your manner of life from the worse to the better, from things temporal to things eternal; for know ye that there is one God, who is in heaven, whose world ye unrighteously dwell in before His righteous eyes.
How can it be that Jesus preached six months earlier in the same year as Peter's appearance in Rome? Mustn't this be metaphorical perhaps mistranslated?

Tiberius's reign 18 September 14 CE –; 16 March 37 CE or 22 1/2 years. Divided by four = a little less than six years. The Roman calendar, like our own, began in January which was a winter month: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_calendar. If we presume that the 'Tiberian year calendar' began in 'winter' which lasted almost six years, the seventh year would be the first full month of 'spring' (roughly lasting until the 11th year of Tiberius's reign, 'summer' from the 11th to the 16th or 17th year of Tiberius's reign and then presumably autumn would round out the last 5 1/2 year period - i.e. 32 - 37 CE. Isn't that exactly the period we imagine that Peter would have appeared in Rome? In other words, in the period leading up to Claudius's reign when we get all these reports of Simon Magus in Rome? Albeit ignoring the existence of Caligula which I think was fairly common.

But interestingly if the 'springtime' reference for the beginning of Jesus's reign holds in this Roman calendar construct relating to the reign of Tiberius doesn't that confirm the dating of the Acts of Pilate i.e. the 7th year of Tiberius for the ministry of Jesus? Surely it can't be the author's point that Peter left Jesus while Jesus was still alive and traveled to Rome. That rules out a literal rendering of the material. The only other possibility as I see it is a metaphorical interpretation of the concept of 'year' applying 'year' to the entire rule of Tiberius. What do you think?
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Re: Springtime for Tiberius

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Secret Alias wrote: Fri May 18, 2018 5:29 am Just wondering if anyone can find the original for this particular passage in the Clementine Homilies because I wonder whether it provides a timetable for (a) the ministry of Jesus and (b) the ministry of Peter in Rome relative to the entire reign of Tiberius:
[Chapter VI] And, not to discuss such matters to you in a long speech, while I was occupied with such reasonings and doings, a certain report, taking its rise in the spring-time, in the reign of Tiberius Cæsar, gradually grew everywhere, and ran through the world as truly the good tidings of God, being unable to stifle the counsel of God in silence. Therefore it everywhere became greater and louder, saying that a certain One in Judæa, beginning in the spring season, was preaching to the Jews the kingdom of the invisible God, and saying that whoever of them would reform his manner of living should enjoy it. And in order that He might be believed that He uttered these things full of the Godhead, He wrought many wonderful miracles and signs by His mere command, as having received power from God. For He made the deaf to hear, the blind to see, the lame to walk, raised up the bowed down, drove away every disease, put to flight every demon; and even scabbed lepers, by only looking on Him from a distance, were sent away cured by Him; and the dead being brought to Him, were raised; and there was nothing which He could not do. And as time advanced, so much the greater, through the arrival of more persons, and the stronger grew—I say not now the report, but—the truth of the thing; for now at length there were meetings in various places for consultation and inquiry as to who He might be that had appeared, and what was His purpose.

[Chapter VII] And then in the same year, in the autumn season, a certain one, standing in a public place, cried and said, Men of Rome, hearken. The Son of God has come in Judæa, proclaiming eternal life to all who will, if they shall live according to the counsel of the Father, who has sent Him. Wherefore change your manner of life from the worse to the better, from things temporal to things eternal; for know ye that there is one God, who is in heaven, whose world ye unrighteously dwell in before His righteous eyes.
How can it be that Jesus preached six months earlier in the same year as Peter's appearance in Rome? Mustn't this be metaphorical perhaps mistranslated?
I lack the time to properly analyze the passage, but here is the Greek from the TLG; I have underlined the passages you boldfaced above:

Clementine Homilies 1.6-7:

6 Καὶ ἵνα μή σοι τὰ τοιαῦτα μακρῷ διηγήσωμαι λόγῳ, ἐν τοσούτοις λογισμοῖς καὶ πράγμασιν ὄντος μου φήμη τις ἠρέμα ἐπὶ τῆς Τιβερίου Καίσαρος βασιλείας ἐξ ἐαρινῆς τροπῆς τὴν ἀρχὴν λαμβάνουσα ηὔξανεν ἑκάστοτε καὶ ὡς ἀληθῶς ἀγαθὴ θεοῦ ἄγγελος διέτρεχε τὸν κόσμον, τὸ τοῦ θεοῦ βούλημα σιγᾶν στέγειν μὴ δυναμένη. ἑκάστοτε οὖν πλείων καὶ μείζων ἐγίνετο, λέγουσα ὥς τίς ποτε ἐν Ἰουδαίᾳ, ἐξ ἐαρινῆς τροπῆς λαβὼν τὴν ἀρχήν, Ἰουδαίοις τὴν τοῦ ἀιδίου θεοῦ εὐαγγελίζεται βασιλείαν, ἧς ἀπολαύειν λέγει ἐάν τις αὐτῶν προκατορθώσῃ τὴν πολιτείαν· τοῦ δὲ πιστεύεσθαι αὐτὸν χάριν ὅτι θειότητος γέμων ταῦτα πνέει, πολλὰ θαυμάσια σημεῖά τε καὶ τέρατα διαπράττεται κελεύσει μόνῃ, ὡς παρὰ θεοῦ εἰληφὼς τὴν ἐξουσίαν· κωφοὺς γὰρ ποιεῖ ἀκούειν, τυφλοὺς ἀναβλέπειν, κυλλοὺς χωλοὺς ὀρθοῖ, πᾶσαν νόσον ἀπελαύνει, πάντα δαίμονα φυγαδεύει. ἀλλὰ καὶ λεπροὶ [ψωροὶ] ἐκ διαστήματος μόνον ἐνορῶντες αὐτῷ ἰώμενοι ἀπαλλάσσονται. νεκροὶ δὲ προσφερόμενοι ἐγείρονται, καὶ οὐδέν ἐστιν ὃ ἀδυνατεῖ ποιεῖν. καὶ ὅσῳ γε μᾶλλον ὁ χρόνος προέκοπτεν, πολὺ μείζων διὰ πλειόνων τῶν ἐπιδημούντων <καὶ> βεβαιοτέρα ἐγίνετο οὐκέτι φήμη λέγω, ἀλλὰ τοῦ πράγματος ἡ ἀλήθεια· ἤδη γάρ ποτε καὶ συστήματα κατὰ τόπους ἐγίνετο βουλῆς καὶ σκέψεως τοῦ τίς ἂν εἴη ὁ φανεὶς καὶ τί βούλεται λέγειν.

7 καὶ δή ποτέ τις πρὸς αὐτῷ τῷ ἔτει ἐν φθινοπωρινῇ τροπῇ δημοσίᾳ στὰς ἐβόα λέγων· Ἄνδρες Ῥωμαῖοι, ἀκούσατε· ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ υἱὸς ἐν Ἰουδαίᾳ πάρεστιν, ἐπαγγελλόμενος πᾶσιν τοῖς βουλομένοις ζωὴν αἰώνιον, ἐὰν [τὰ] κατὰ γνώμην τοῦ πέμψαντος αὐτὸν πατρὸς βιώσωσιν. διὸ μεταβάλλεσθε τὸν τρόπον ἀπὸ τῶν χειρόνων ἐπὶ τὰ κρείττονα, ἀπὸ τῶν προσκαίρων ἐπὶ τὰ αἰώνια· γνῶτε ἕνα θεὸν εἶναι τὸν ἐπουράνιον, οὗ τὸν κόσμον ἀδίκως οἰκεῖτε ἔμπροσθεν τῶν αὐτοῦ δικαίων ὀφθαλμῶν. ἀλλ' ἐὰν μεταβάλησθε καὶ κατὰ τὴν αὐτοῦ βούλησιν βιώσητε, εἰς ἕτερον αἰῶνα ἐνεχθέντες καὶ ἀίδιοι γενόμενοι τῶν ἀπορρήτων αὐτοῦ ἀγαθῶν ἀπολαύσετε· ἐὰν δὲ ἀπειθήσητε, αἱ ψυχαὶ ὑμῶν μετὰ τὴν τοῦ σώματος λύσιν εἰς τὸν τόπον τοῦ πυρὸς βληθήσονται, ὅπου ἀιδίως κολαζόμεναι ἀνωφέλητα μετανοήσουσιν· ὁ γὰρ τῆς μετανοίας καιρὸς ἡ νῦν ἑκάστου ζωὴ τυγχάνει. ἐγὼ μὲν οὖν ταῦτα ἀκούων ἠχθόμην ὅτι οὐδεὶς ἐκ τοσούτων ὄχλων τηλικαύτην ἀγγελίαν ἀκούσας εἴρηκεν· Εἰς Ἰουδαίαν πορεύσομαι, ἵνα ἴδω εἰ ταῦθ' οὗτος λέγων ἀληθεύει ὡς ὅτι υἱὸς θεοῦ ἐπιδεδήμηκεν τῇ Ἰουδαίᾳ, ἀγαθῆς καὶ αἰωνίας ἐλπίδος χάριν τὴν τοῦ ἀποστείλαντος πατρὸς βούλησιν ἐκφαίνων. καὶ ὅπερ λέγουσιν αὐτὸν κηρύσσειν, οὐκ ἔστιν μικρόν· ὧν μὲν γὰρ τὰς ψυχὰς διαβεβαιοῦται αἰωνίους οὔσας αἰωνίων ἀπολαύσειν ἀγαθῶν, ὧν δὲ ἐν πυρὶ ἀσβέστῳ ῥιφείσας τὸν αἰῶνα κολασθήσεσθαι.

How do we know that this "certain one" (τις) is Peter? Peter does not appear by name until chapter 15 or so.
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Re: Springtime for Tiberius

Post by Secret Alias »

Actually let me correct my last post. The man who Clement sees in Rome is not Peter but Barnabas and Barnabas was an 'apostolic' not an 'apostle' (at least theoretically) so we can't be dealing with the year of Jesus's ministry. The same material also appears in Recognitions which underscores it's originality - i.e. that it came from an underlying source used by both Homilies and Recognitions. We read there:
Not to make a long story of it, while I was tossed upon these billows of my thought, a certain report, which took its rise in the regions of the East in the reign of Tiberius Cæsar, gradually reached us; and gaining strength as it passed through every place, like some good message sent from God, it was filling the whole world, and suffered not the divine will to be concealed in silence. For it was spread over all places, announcing that there was a certain person in Judæa, who, beginning in the springtime, was preaching the kingdom of God to the Jews, and saying that those should receive it who should observe the ordinances of His commandments and His doctrine. And that His speech might be believed to be worthy of credit, and full of the Divinity, He was said to perform many mighty works, and wonderful signs and prodigies by His mere word; so that, as one having power from God, He made the deaf to hear, and the blind to see, and the lame to stand erect, and expelled every infirmity and all demons from men; yea, that He even raised dead persons who were brought to Him; that He cured lepers also, looking at them from a distance; and that there was absolutely nothing which seemed impossible to Him. These and such like things were confirmed in process of time, not now by frequent rumours, but by the plain statements of persons coming from those quarters; and day by day the truth of the matter was further disclosed.

Chapter 7. Arrival of Barnabas at Rome.
At length meetings began to be held in various places in the city, and this subject to be discussed in conversation, and to be a matter of wonder who this might be who had appeared, and what message He had brought from God to men; until, about the same year, a certain man, standing in a most crowded place in the city, made proclamation to the people, saying: Hear me, O you citizens of Rome. The Son of God is now in the regions of Judæa, promising eternal life to every one who will hear Him, but upon condition that he shall regulate his actions according to the will of Him by whom He has been sent, even of God the Father. Wherefore turn ye from evil things to good, from things temporal to things eternal. Acknowledge that there is one God, ruler of heaven and earth, in whose righteous sight ye unrighteous inhabit His world. But if you be converted, and act according to His will, then, coming to the world to come, and being made immortal, you shall enjoy His unspeakable blessings and rewards. Now, the man who spoke these things to the people was from the regions of the East, by nation a Hebrew, by name Barnabas, who said that he himself was one of His disciples, and that he was sent for this end, that he should declare these things to those who would hear them. When I heard these things, I began, with the rest of the multitude, to follow him, and to hear what he had to say. Truly I perceived that there was nothing of dialectic artifice in the man, but that he expounded with simplicity, and without any craft of speech, such things as he had heard from the Son of God, or had seen. For he did not confirm his assertions by the force of arguments, but produced, from the people who stood round about him, many witnesses of the sayings and marvels which he related.
Although this might be regarded as contradicting the thesis "The Son of God is now in the regions of Judæa, promising eternal life to every one who will hear Him, but upon condition that he shall regulate his actions according to the will of Him by whom He has been sent, even of God the Father" Hmmm.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Springtime for Tiberius

Post by Secret Alias »

And there is a fundamental difference between the two versions of the story. In Homilies he is simply an unnamed preacher - perhaps Simon Magus? In Recognitions he is Barnabas. In Homilies Clement hears this unnamed preacher preach and decides to go to Judea and then - in what ammounts to a 'stopover' in Alexandria - he meets Barnabas:
Men of Rome, hearken. The Son of God has come in Judæa, proclaiming eternal life to all who will, if they shall live according to the counsel of the Father, who has sent Him. Wherefore change your manner of life from the worse to the better, from things temporal to things eternal; for know ye that there is one God, who is in heaven, whose world ye unrighteously dwell in before His righteous eyes. But if ye be changed, and live according to His counsel, then, being born into the other world, and becoming eternal, ye shall enjoy His unspeakable good things. But if ye be unbelieving, your souls, after the dissolution of the body, shall be thrown into the place of fire, where, being punished eternally, they shall repent of their unprofitable deeds. For every one, the term of repentance is the present life. I therefore, when I heard these things, was grieved, because no one among so great multitudes, hearing such an announcement, said: I shall go into Judæa, that I may know if this man who tells us these things speaks the truth, that the Son of God has come into Judæa, for the sake of a good and eternal hope, revealing the will of the Father who sent Him. For it is no small matter which they say that He preaches: for He asserts that the souls of some, being themselves immortal, shall enjoy eternal good things; and that those of others, being thrown into unquenchable fire, shall be punished for ever

Chapter VIII. Departure from Rome While I spoke thus concerning others, I also lectured myself, saying, Why do I blame others, being myself guilty of the very same crime of heedlessness? But I shall hasten into Judæa, having first arranged my affairs. And when I had thus made up my mind, there occurred a long time of delay, my worldly affairs being difficult to arrange. Therefore, meditating further on the nature of life, that by involving men in hope it lays snares for those who are making haste, yea, and how much time I had been robbed of while tossed by hopes, and that we men die while thus occupied, I left all my affairs as they were, and sped to Portus; and coming to the harbour, and being taken on board a ship, I was borne by adverse winds to Alexandria instead of Judæa; and being detained there by stress of weather, I consorted with the philosophers, and told them about the rumour and the sayings of him who had appeared in Rome. And they answered that indeed they knew nothing of him who had appeared in Rome; but concerning Him who was born in Judæa, and who was said by the report to be the Son of God, they had heard from many who had come from thence, and had learned respecting all the wonderful things that He did with a word. Chapter IX. Preaching of Barnabas And when I said that I wished I could meet with some one of those who had seen Him, they immediately brought me to one, saying, There is one here who not only is acquainted with Him, but is also of that country, a Hebrew, by name Barnabas, who says that he himself is one of His disciples; and hereabouts he resides, and readily announces to those who will the terms of His promise. Then I went with them; and when I came, I stood listening to his words with the crowd that stood round him; and I perceived that he was speaking the truth not with dialectic art, but was setting forth simply and without preparation what he had heard and seen the manifested Son of God do and say. And even from the crowd who stood around him he produced many witnesses of the miracles and discourses which he narrated.
Indeed it is important to note - given my discussion of 'God's will' and the Ebionites in the other thread - that by the time Clement reaches Judea from Rome it is clear he has no expectations to meet Jesus (i.e. he is not led to believe that Jesus is still alive) but rather he recognizes that only his 'will' is left roaming the earth in his living witnesses (= the disciples) like Barnabas.

After encountering Barnabas (who is clearly not the same person he saw in Rome) Clement defends his rather 'simple' preaching from 'philosophers' who deride his claims about knowing God's 'will' saying:
Why, O God, did You not proclaim to us Your counsel? Shall you not, if you be thought worthy of an answer at all, be told this? I, knowing before the foundation of the world all characters that were to be, acted towards each one by anticipation according to his deserts without making it known; but wishing to give full assurance to those who have fled to me that this is so, and to explain why from the beginning, and in the first ages, I did not suffer my counsel to be publicly proclaimed; I now, in the end of the world, have sent heralds to proclaim my will, and they are insulted and flouted by those who will not be benefited, and who wilfully reject my friendship. Oh, great wrong! The preachers are exposed to danger even to the loss of life, and that by the men who are called to salvation. And this wrongful treatment of my heralds would have been against all from the beginning, if from the beginning the unworthy had been called to salvation. For that which is now done wrongfully by these men serves to the vindication of my righteous foreknowledge, that it was well that I did not choose from the beginning to expose uselessly to public contempt the word which is worthy of honour; but determined to suppress it, as being honourable, not indeed from those who were worthy from the beginning—for to them also I imparted it—but from those, and such as those, unworthy, as you see them to be,—those who hate me, and who will not love themselves. And now, give over laughing at this man, and hear me with respect to his announcement, or let any one of the hearers who pleases answer. And do not bark like vicious dogs, deafening with disorderly clamour the ears of those who would be saved, ye unrighteous and God-haters, and perverting the saving method to unbelief. How shall you be able to obtain pardon, who scorn him who is sent to speak to you of the Godhead of God? And this you do towards a man whom you ought to have received on account of his good-will towards you, even if he did not speak truth.
Remember Clement has just left his boat. He can't have expected to meet Jesus or had any other understanding from his initial encounter with the unnamed Christian in Rome other than recognizing or realizing that we are in an age AFTER the initial appearance of the Son of God. He has come to see 'the will of God' manifested in latter day saints to borrow the Mormon terminology. Recognitions has been completely altered having Barnabas appear in Rome thus removing the possibility that Clement was first introduced to Christianity by Simon Magus as his father was (and which accords with the doctrine of pairs which appears later in the work i.e. that Simon was to go out in the world 'first' and then Peter goes out after him to correct his evil.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Fri May 18, 2018 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Springtime for Tiberius

Post by Secret Alias »

I can't overstate the significance of the transposition of location for Clement's original encounter with Barnabas. In Homilies Clement hears an unnamed preacher preach a very simplistic message about the Son of God 'has' preached the will of God and then proceeds to Judea by way of Alexandria to hear Barnabas debate philosophers about whether God's will extends to manufacture of animals:
But while the multitudes were favourably disposed towards the things that he so artlessly spoke, the philosophers, impelled by their worldly learning, set upon laughing at him and making sport of him, upbraiding and reproaching him with excessive presumption, making use of the great armoury of syllogisms. But he set aside their babbling, and did not enter into their subtle questioning, but without embarrassment went on with what he was saying. And then one of them asked, Wherefore it was that a gnat, although it be so small, and has six feet, has wings also; while an elephant, the largest of beasts, is wingless, and has but four feet? But he, after the question had been put, resuming his discourse, which had been interrupted, as though he had answered the question, resumed his original discourse, only making use of this preface after each interruption: We have a commission only to tell you the words and the wondrous doings of Him who sent us; and instead of logical demonstration, we present to you many witnesses from amongst yourselves who stand by, whose faces I remember, as living images. These sufficient testimonies it is left to your choice to submit to, or to disbelieve. But I shall not cease to declare unto you what is for your profit; for to be silent were to me a loss, and to disbelieve is ruin to you. But indeed I could give answers to your frivolous questions, if you asked them through love of truth. But the reason of the different structure of the gnat and elephant it is not fitting to tell to those who are ignorant of the God of all.
In Recognitions, the later text, Barnabas is in Rome while Jesus is still alive and the debate with the philosophers occurs in Rome:
Now, inasmuch as the people began to assent willingly to the things which were sincerely spoken, and to embrace his simple discourse, those who thought themselves learned or philosophic began to laugh at the man, and to flout him, and to throw out for him the grappling-hooks of syllogisms, like strong arms. But he, unterrified, regarding their subtleties as mere ravings, did not even judge them worthy of an answer, but boldly pursued the subject which he had set before him. At length, some one having proposed this question to him as he was speaking, Why a gnat has been so formed, that though it is a small creature, and has six feet, yet it has got wings in addition; whereas an elephant, though it is an immense animal, and has no wings, yet has only four feet; he, paying no attention to the question, went on with his discourse, which had been interrupted by the unseasonable challenge, only adding this admonition at every interruption: We have it in charge to declare to you the words and the wondrous works of Him who has sent us, and to confirm the truth of what we speak, not by artfully devised arguments, but by witnesses produced from among yourselves. For I recognise many standing in the midst of you whom I remember to have heard along with us the things which we have heard, and to have seen what we have seen. But be it in your option to receive or to spurn the tidings which we bring to you. For we cannot keep back what we know to be for your advantage, because, if we be silent, woe is to us; but to you, if you receive not what we speak, destruction. I could indeed very easily answer your foolish challenges, if you asked for the sake of learning truth — I mean as to the difference of a gnat and an elephant; but now it were absurd to speak to you of these creatures, when the very Creator and Framer of all things is unknown by you.
Isn't that an interesting possibility that Clement initially heard the preaching of Simon Magus in Rome and thus we are clearly in a post-ministry period, the apostolic age and Simon is really a mask for Paul so that we have an Ebionite document documenting the 'deprogramming' of Clement from initial exposure to Paul's preaching.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Springtime for Tiberius

Post by Secret Alias »

Indeed 'Barnabas' disappears completely from the narrative in both accounts once Peter is introduced. In Homilies he gives him instructions about where to meet Peter:
While I spoke these words, and others to the same effect, there arose a great excitement among the crowd; and some as pitying Barnabas, sympathized with me; but others, being senseless, terribly gnashed their teeth against me. But, as the evening had already come, I took Barnabas by the hand, and by force conducted him, against his will, to my lodging, and constrained him to remain there, lest some one might lay hands on him. And having spent several days, and instructed me briefly in the true doctrine, as well as he could in a few days, he said that he should hasten into Judæa for the observance of the festival, and also because he wished for the future to consort with those of his own nation. Chapter XIV. Departure of Barnabas But it plainly appeared to me that he was disconcerted. For when I said to him, Only set forth to me the words which you have heard of the Man who has appeared, and I will adorn them with my speech, and preach the counsel of God; and if you do so, within a few days I will sail with you, for I greatly desire to go to the land of Judæa, and perhaps I shall dwell with you all my life;—when he heard this, he answered: If you wish to inquire into our affairs, and to learn what is for your advantage, sail with me at once. But if you will not, I shall now give you directions to my house, and that of those whom you wish to meet, that when you choose to come you may find us. For I shall set out tomorrow for my home. And when I saw that he could not be prevailed upon, I went with him as far as the harbour; and having learned of him the directions which he had promised to give me for finding the dwellings, I said to him, Were it not that tomorrow I am to recover a debt that is due to me, I should straightway set sail with you. But I shall soon overtake you. And having said this, and having given him in charge to those who commanded the ship, I returned grieving, remembering him as an excellent and dear friend.
In Recognitions the discussion occurs of course in Rome:
While I was urging these and similar arguments, a great excitement was stirred up among the bystanders, some being moved with pity as towards a stranger, and approving my speech as in accordance with that feeling; others, petulant and stolid, rousing the anger of their undisciplined minds as much against me as against Barnabas. But as the day was declining to evening, I laid hold of Barnabas by the right hand, and led him away, although reluctantly, to my house; and there I made him remain, lest perchance any one of the rude rabble should lay hands upon him. While we were thus placed in contact for a few days, I gladly heard him discoursing the word of truth; yet he hastened his departure, saying that he must by all means celebrate at Judæa a festal day of his religion which was approaching, and that there he should remain in future with his countrymen and his brethren, evidently indicating that he was horrified at the wrong that had been done to him.

At length I said to him, Only expound to me the doctrine of that man who you say has appeared, and I will arrange your sayings in my language, and will preach the kingdom and righteousness of Almighty God; and after that, if you wish it, I shall even sail along with you, for I am extremely desirous to see Judæa, and perhaps I shall remain with you always. To this he answered, If indeed you wish to see our country, and to learn those things which you desire, set sail with me even now; or, if there be anything that detains you now, I shall leave with you directions to my dwelling, so that when you please to come you may easily find me; for tomorrow I shall set out on my journey. When I saw him determined, I went down with him to the harbour, and carefully took from him the directions which he gave me to find his dwelling. I told him that, but for the necessity of getting some money which was due to me, I should not at all delay, but that I should speedily follow him. Having told him this, I commended him to the kindness of those who had charge of the ship, and returned sad; for I was possessed of the memory of the intercourse which I had had with an excellent and a choice friend.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
andrewcriddle
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Re: Springtime for Tiberius

Post by andrewcriddle »

One of the problems here is that scholars are undecided whether the underlying Clementine text originally had Barnabas in Rome or Barnabas in Egypt. IMVHO I agree with you that Barnabas originally met Clement in Egypt (as in Homilies) and the Recognitions changed this to a meeting in Rome. However I have been unable to develop a solid argument for this.

One possible argument is that in Homilies Clement goes to Alexandria by mistake due to a storm at sea. Ending up in places one did not intend due to sea storms is so standard in the genre of the ancient Greek novel from which the pseudo-Clementines derive that it is prima-facie original. This is not however, at all a strong argument.

Andrew Criddle
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DCHindley
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Re: Springtime for Tiberius

Post by DCHindley »

"It's Springtime for Tiberius
and It-al-y ..." Ohhh maaan!

Secret Alias
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Re: Springtime for Tiberius

Post by Secret Alias »

Andrew

Here is my argument for the originality of Homilies. The presence of Appion of Alexandria in Homilies. Clement has a discussion with Simon's disciple Appion (H 5.7 – 6.25). All this is omitted by R, but the same subjects are discussed in R 10.17–51 all of which means that either Homilies modified Recognitions and adds the Alexandrian interest or vice versa. But is someone more likely to have smoothed over an otherwise obscure Alexandrian personality like Appion and made his arguments more general (as I contend) or added in an obscure Alexandrian personality. I see no compelling reason for thinking that someone was compelled to add Appion. Also notice that Homilies makes reference to Simon learning magic in Alexandria. My guess is that the work was written by someone in Alexandria, hence Rufinus's interest in the text as it was 'Origenist' in a general sense as the terminology likely was synonymous with 'Egyptian.' The motivation for removing the Alexandrian references is likely connected with its 'Origenist' connection
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Springtime for Tiberius

Post by Secret Alias »

Be skillful money changers seems to be an agraphon of Egyptian provenance https://books.google.com/books?id=a7-OB ... pt&f=false We read in De Specialibus legibus iv.77 the same sense though with a slightly different word:
And let the man who undertakes the duty of a judge, like a skillful money-changer (Gk. arguramoibos agalhos], divide and distinguish between the natures of things, in order that confusion may not be caused by the mixing together of what is good and what is spurious."
For anyone trying to do this from home here is the entire Recogntions http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/0 ... f],_EN.pdf
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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