Springtime for Tiberius

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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DCHindley
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Re: Springtime for Tiberius

Post by DCHindley »

There is an interesting online article about the evidence for copper drachmas that were, for whatever good reason they had, called "silver." This "silver" (copper) drachma was worth 29 copper obols, which was a little different than the prevailing rate for both silver and copper drachmas, 28 obols. It is apparently an accounting stratagem, not a real coin, to reconcile receipts, valued in silver, from expenses, usually valued in copper coinage. Double entry bookkeeping ...

(Schuman, Verne B) The Seven-Obol Drachma of Roman Egypt (Classical Philology, Vol. 47, No. 4, Oct 1952, pp. 214-218)
http://www.jstor.org/stable/265590
[214] It has long been accepted as an established fact that no coin with a value of seven obols existed in Roman Egypt, a view which seems to be supported by the numismatic evidence. For, apart from a few didrachms and drachmas issued by Claudius,1 the only silver coins (billon) current were the Alexandrian tetradrachms; yet a 7-obol drachma, at times termed “silver,” is found in various documents.2 This apparent inconsistency between the numismatic and documentary evidence makes it appear that the value of the tetradrachm fluctuated between twenty-eight and twenty-nine obols; hence the 7-obol drachma was merely an accounting device used to denote one-fourth of a tetradrachm whenever its value was twenty-eight obols. This conclusion, however, is found to be lacking somewhat in logic. In a fiduciary system, such as existed in Roman Egypt, there is no good reason why the relationship between one denomination and another should ever vary. Consequently, the ratio between the tetradrachm and obol should remain fixed. But aside from all logic the evidence of P Lond., 131, a farm account of A.D. 78/9, must be considered.

In this document the account of receipts was kept in drachmas of silver, the account of expenditures, for the most part, in drachmas of copper at six obols to the drachma. To get receipts and expenditures on the same basis at the end of the month the copper drachmas were converted to silver.

...

To coordinate this interpretation with the statement quoted above in which copper is converted to silver at two different rates, consideration must be given to the probable procedure involved in handling money on two different bases, silver and copper, the former at 28 or 29 obols to the tetradrachm.

It is a reasonable supposition that [215] money received in silver at two different rates was kept in separate containers. Otherwise there would be no logic in denoting some receipts as silver, some not, when all were added and totaled as silver. Almost daily expenditures for labor must have necessitated a constant changing of the silver received into small coin (rated at six obols to the drachma) for the payment of individual wages which were a few obols a day. If a tetradrachm was converted into change it could only be at the rate of twenty-nine obols. But if 7-obol drachmas were to be converted, purely as a matter of consistency in procedure, this might be done in units of four. The fact that in this one document they were converted in units of four in no way implies that it could be done only in that way. Furthermore, since use is made of a 7-obol drachma in this same account as indicated earlier, proof weighs far more heavily in favor of a 7-obol drachma than a 28-obol tetradrachm.

...

[216] Not only does the existence of a 7-obol drachma allow the accounting practices in the preceding two documents to be explained in a logical way but it also provides a reasonable explanation of the αι καί formula found frequently in tax receipts and registers. Since I have discussed this elsewhere9 one example will suffice here.

...

To summarize, if the evidence presented here has been correctly interpreted, we may conclude that there was no 6-obol drachma coin on the silver standard; that there was a 7-obol drachma termed “silver” though actually made of copper; that the other copper coins minted after Augustus had values of 4 obols, 2 obols, 1 obol, and 1/2 obol; that Augustus issued copper coins valued on the silver standard at 2 obols, 1 obol, 1/2 obol, and 1 chalcus; and finally, that there existed under Augustus a 29-obol tetradrachm and a 7-obol drachma although these coins were not issued by him but were part of the existing Ptolemaic coinage.
Interesting ... :crazy:

DCH
Secret Alias
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Re: Springtime for Tiberius

Post by Secret Alias »

Back to the original discussion. The reference to the 'spring' of Tiberius's rule - at least potentially - might point to an Aramaism in the core text. What is now identified as 'the month of Abib' really originally meant 'ripening' or 'young ears.' In the temple period 'Abib' simply meant spring but in due course after the destruction Abib came to be determined by the equinox. The situation points to the slippery poetic origin of the Hebrew term - not to actual spring or a season but an action (= the young ears appearing).
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Secret Alias
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Re: Springtime for Tiberius

Post by Secret Alias »

Exodus 9:31 The flax and barley were destroyed, since the barley had headed (aviv) and the flax was in bloom

Leviticus 2:14 If you bring a grain offering of firstfruits to the LORD, offer crushed heads of aviv roasted in the fire
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Springtime for Tiberius

Post by Secret Alias »

And this is curious too:

καὶ δή ποτέ τις πρὸς αὐτῷ τῷ ἔτει ἐν φθινοπωρινῇ τροπῇ δημοσίᾳ στὰς ἐβόα λέγων·

While the translator renders this 'autumnal season' or something like that it literally means 'autumnal solstice' which I think draws us in a different direction entirely. Why exactly would the author speak of two appearances in 'spring' and 'the autumnal solstice'? I think there might be some astrological significance to this.

Now strictly speaking there are four cardinal points in number (the two equinoxes and two solstices). 'Autumnal solstice' makes no sense whatsoever.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Springtime for Tiberius

Post by Secret Alias »

Pliny does seem to intimate that Bruma - the day the sun is the smallest = the autumn solstice at least according to one translator:

https://books.google.com/books?id=qobx5 ... 22&f=false

Bruma is undoubtedly the ancient precursor of Xmas. The bruma, i.e. the festival of the winter solstice was always celebrated on VIII Kal. Ian. (Servius A. 7.720). The eighth day before the Kalends of January was always December 25th in the Julian calendar, because December always had 31 days.

Servius’ commentary on Vergil is:

[720] vel cum sole novo prima aestatis parte: nam proprie sol novus est VIII. Kal. ian.; sed tunc non sunt aristae, quas ab ariditate dictas esse constat.

(Maurus Servius Honoratus. In Vergilii carmina comentarii. Servii Grammatici qui feruntur in Vergilii carmina commentarii; recensuerunt Georgius Thilo et Hermannus Hagen. Georgius Thilo. Leipzig. B. G. Teubner. 1881.)

Roger Pearse having a stab at a translation:

Or when the new sun in the first part of the year; for properly the new sun is the 8th day before the kalends of January; but at that time there are no harvests, which ab ariditate dictas esse constat.

Are the Clementine's addressing an ancient precursor to Xmas i.e the day when Jesus the Stranger appeared in Rome nine months after the crucifixion?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
andrewcriddle
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Re: Springtime for Tiberius

Post by andrewcriddle »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 10:00 pm Pliny does seem to intimate that Bruma - the day the sun is the smallest = the autumn solstice at least according to one translator:

https://books.google.com/books?id=qobx5 ... 22&f=false

Bruma is undoubtedly the ancient precursor of Xmas. The bruma, i.e. the festival of the winter solstice was always celebrated on VIII Kal. Ian. (Servius A. 7.720). The eighth day before the Kalends of January was always December 25th in the Julian calendar, because December always had 31 days.

Servius’ commentary on Vergil is:

[720] vel cum sole novo prima aestatis parte: nam proprie sol novus est VIII. Kal. ian.; sed tunc non sunt aristae, quas ab ariditate dictas esse constat.

(Maurus Servius Honoratus. In Vergilii carmina comentarii. Servii Grammatici qui feruntur in Vergilii carmina commentarii; recensuerunt Georgius Thilo et Hermannus Hagen. Georgius Thilo. Leipzig. B. G. Teubner. 1881.)

Roger Pearse having a stab at a translation:

Or when the new sun in the first part of the year; for properly the new sun is the 8th day before the kalends of January; but at that time there are no harvests, which ab ariditate dictas esse constat.

Are the Clementine's addressing an ancient precursor to Xmas i.e the day when Jesus the Stranger appeared in Rome nine months after the crucifixion?
Bruma is (among other meanings) the winter solstice on December 25th . However the feast of Bruma the Brumalia seems to have started on November 24th and continued till December 17th http://www.ancient-origins.net/history- ... ays-007233

Andrew Criddle
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